World Football

[Palmeiras_Fan]

27 minutes ago, Ham said:

As an outsider I thought Santos would have been in the frame too or do I mainly know them because of player sales? 🤔

A lot of people make a point for Santos because of Pelé (and many also know them because it's where Neymar came from).

In the 60's, when they had a stellar squad and were probably the best team in the world, they piled up titles and those feats are talked about until today.

But the fact is that, in historical terms, Santos is still very dependent of that era. 

The reality is that the real size of the club does not match that off-the-curve moment that they had. 

Santos was ALWAYS smaller that the other 3 paulista clubs (Corinthians, Palmeiras and São Paulo), up until the second half of the 50's. And after the end of the "Pelé Era", they went back to winning a lot less than its 3 rivals from the state.

The fact is that, if you remove the "Pelé Era" from Santos, they don't have much left. 

The other clubs were far more consitent along the decades than Santos, which, like I said, is very dependent on the "Pelé Era".

Besides, Santos fanbase is signicantly smaller:

• FLAMENGO has around 40 million supporters
• CORINTHIANS has about 31-32 million supporters
• SÃO PAULO and PALMEIRAS have about 16 millions supporters, each

Santos has about 5-6 millions supporters, at most. It has far less potential than the Top 4 most popular clubs in the country.

It was never among the most popular clubs.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Palmeiras_Fan

[Palmeiras_Fan]

32 minutes ago, chara said:

@Palmeiras_Fan...thanks for the very interesting insight...question...with all the Chelsea fan  "discussion" here regarding our socalled "Owners" what is the basic Ownership situation in Brasil?...

Most of the clubs in Brazil don't have owners.

The law that allowed clubs to become SAFs (Football Anonymous Societies) was only passed in 2021 and, since then, out of the 12 big clubs, only 4 turned into them:

- Cruzeiro (bought by Ronaldo and sold this year to another owner from Brazil)

- Botafogo (bought by Crystal Palace's owner, the american John Textor)

- Vasco da Gama (bought by the American investment company 777 Partners)

- Atlético Mineiro (bought by local partners)

 

All the other 8 big clubs remain Civil Society Organisations, without owners.

 

Also, some other important clubs have also become SAF's, like Bahia (bought by the City Group) and Coritiba (bought by a local group).

 

And Bragantino, which was a fairly small club, was bought by Red Bull and, since then, has become a fist-division club and has remained top tier ever since.

Edited June 27, 2024 by Palmeiras_Fan

[Ham]

25 minutes ago, Palmeiras_Fan said:

A lot of people make a point for Santos because of Pelé (and many also know them because it's where Neymar came from).

In the 60's, when they had a stellar squad and were probably the best team in the world, they piled up titles and those feats are talked about until today.

But the fact is that, in historical terms, Santos is still very dependent of that era. 

The reality is that the real size of the club does not match that off-the-curve moment that they had. 

Santos was ALWAYS smaller that the other 3 paulista clubs (Corinthians, Palmeiras and São Paulo), up until the second half of the 50's. And after the end of the "Pelé Era", they went back to winning a lot less than its 3 rivals from the state.

The fact is that, if you remove the "Pelé Era" from Santos, they don't have much left. 

The other clubs were far more consitent along the decades than Santos, which, like I said, is very dependent on the "Pelé Era".

Besides, Santos fanbase is signicantly smaller:

• FLAMENGO has around 40 million supporters
• CORINTHIANS has about 31-32 million supporters
• SÃO PAULO and PALMEIRAS have about 16 millions supporters, each

Santos has about 5-6 millions supporters, at most. It has far less potential than the Top 4 most popular clubs in the country.

It was never among the most popular clubs.

So it was because of player connections that I overestimated their size/importance 👍

[Palmeiras_Fan]

15 minutes ago, Ham said:

So it was because of player connections that I overestimated their size/importance 👍

That's what many people do.

Santos is still the most internationally known Brazilian club because of Pelé.

But that has to do with the player, not with the club itself. 

As mentioned, it is far from being one of the most popular clubs in Brazil and it is not the most successful either (90% of its most relevant titles come from the 60's and the "Pelé Era").

Edited June 27, 2024 by Palmeiras_Fan

[chara]

@Palmeiras_Fan....Many thanks for your latest posts and very interesting insight.

Another question,,,sorry but I find the idea of a valid football voice from a country we all know well as an International Legend..and Chelsea players....but really know very little in depth,,,,,such an interesting thing to be taken advantage of!

How well known is Chelsea and/or the English game and set up over there..or in my case,,being in Colorado,,down there!

[Sciatika]

To be honest, I only know a few clubs in South America. Off the top of my head, I know of Flamengo and Palmeiras in Brazil and Boca and River Plate in Argentina. Beyond that, I struggle, though, when mentioned, the names seem familiar (such as Santos). SA football was regularly shown in a local pizza place where I went whilst at college. It seemed very focused on individual skills and play and there were some very odd refereeing decisions. All the refs seem to be homers (but that's the same in the EPL).   

[chara]

@Sciatika...some years back the Argentine domestic games were featured on one of the regular channels here.

Since then TV coverage of the game world wide here  has exploded somewhat with bitter infighting between networks to grab bits of the pie and it is no longer easily available although if I cared enough I could probably find the games on a streaming service.

My impression back then is that it was a League Graham Souness would have thrived in! Really hard skilful football and enjoyable up to a point but not something to watch,for me. on a regular basis,,I loved Chopper, for example, but expected more than just his somewhat "clinical" approach to the game from Chelsea,if you get my drift.

I have referenced the officiating as I found it at the modest levels I played in Spain...spot on..homers and a draw away was considered a success as often as not and to win away you had to really win!

Edited June 28, 2024 by chara

[Blue Moon]

I’d have called Chopper surgical rather than clinical, but I do get your drift @chara

[chara]

27 minutes ago, Blue Moon said:

I’d have called Chopper surgical rather than clinical, but I do get your drift @chara

Probably right !...it was just one of those silly stick in your mind old quotes from some newspaper...something about switching Webby and the more "clinical" Chopper!

🪓🪓🦵👨‍⚕️

[Palmeiras_Fan]

On 27/06/2024 at 18:24, chara said:

@Palmeiras_Fan....Many thanks for your latest posts and very interesting insight.

Another question,,,sorry but I find the idea of a valid football voice from a country we all know well as an International Legend..and Chelsea players....but really know very little in depth,,,,,such an interesting thing to be taken advantage of!

How well known is Chelsea and/or the English game and set up over there..or in my case,,being in Colorado,,down there!

The Premier League is the best known league in the world, for sure. 

It's not different around here in Brazil, althoug obvisouly the most watched league is the local Brazilian league (which is considered the "Premier League of the Americas" due to its insane competitiveness and large amount of big clubs competing against each other).

But many people here also follow the Premier League, it is broadcast live on cable TV. 

Edited June 28, 2024 by Palmeiras_Fan

[Palmeiras_Fan]

14 hours ago, Sciatika said:

To be honest, I only know a few clubs in South America. Off the top of my head, I know of Flamengo and Palmeiras in Brazil and Boca and River Plate in Argentina. Beyond that, I struggle, though, when mentioned, the names seem familiar (such as Santos). SA football was regularly shown in a local pizza place where I went whilst at college. It seemed very focused on individual skills and play and there were some very odd refereeing decisions. All the refs seem to be homers (but that's the same in the EPL).   

You must have heard of Corinthians (they endlessly brag about having beaten Chelsea at the Club World Cup in 2012).

São Paulo is also very well known internationally because they have won this title 3 times: in 1992 (against Barcelona), in 1993 (against AC Milan) and in 2005 (against Liverpool).

Up until the 90's and early 2000's, South American clubs were able to seriosuly match European clubs head on, as most of their top players remained in the country and played for the clubs locally.  This only started to changed in the 1990's and 2000's.

Corinthians was actually the last South American club that managed to win the Club World Cup, back in 2012 (precisely against Chelsea).

Edited June 28, 2024 by Palmeiras_Fan

[Sciatika]

My mind works in such a way that if asked to make a list of things, I can only come up with a small number. However, when prompted, I can remember many more. It's not meant as an insult; it is just how my mind works. So, yes, now you've said it, Corinthians and São Paulo.

[Palmeiras_Fan]

Today Palmeiras will play Corinthians for the Brazilian League.

It is the most traditional classic in the state of São Paulo and one of the biggest rivalries in Brazil (often ranked as one of the greatest classics in world football).

It is known in Brazil as the "Derby". 

Edited July 1, 2024 by Palmeiras_Fan

[Sciatika]

I watched the Argentina Ecuador game - a match I can only describe as tetchy!

[chara]

18 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

I watched the Argentina Ecuador game - a match I can only describe as tetchy!

Me too...the phrase "becoming ill tempered" kept coming to mind !

Is it me Sciatica or does the whole Copa America thing feel sort of " League Cup'ish" or Olympics football as opposed to the "real" stuff?

Interesting enough but not really WC  competition level?

Edited July 5, 2024 by chara

[Sciatika]

To be fair, it's the only game I have seen so far, but I agree about it being like Olympic football. It had moments of brilliance, but there were an awful lot of players on the floor, some due to late tackles, pushes and general shithousery and others because, presumably, they were tired and needed a lie-down. There is something very loose and unconnected about it. The pitch looked a bit scrappy too.

[Palmeiras_Fan]

Track record of the 12 big clubs in Brazil (major national and international titles):

• BOTAFOGO - 2 Brazilian Leagues (TOTAL: 2)
• CORINTHIANS - 1 World Cup, 1 Libertadores Cup, 7 Brazilian Leagues, 3 Brazil Cups (TOTAL: 12)
• CRUZEIRO - 2 Libertadores Cups, 4 Brazilian Leagues, 6 Brazil Cups (TOTAL: 12)
• FLAMENGO - 1 Intercontinental Cup, 3 Libertadores Cups, 8 Brazilian Leagues, 4 Brazil Cups (TOTAL: 16)
• FLUMINENSE - 1 Libertadores Cup, 4 Brazilian Leagues, 1 Brazil Cup (TOTAL: 6)
• GRÊMIO - 1 Intercontinental Cup, 3 Libertadores Cups, 2 Brazilian Leagues, 5 Brazil Cups (TOTAL: 11)
• INTERNACIONAL - 1 World Cup, 2 Libertadores Cups, 3 Brazilian Leagues, 1 Brazil Cup (TOTAL: 7)
• ATLÉTICO MINEIRO - 1 Libertadores Cup, 2 Brazilian Leagues, 2 Brazil Cups (TOTAL: 5)
• PALMEIRAS - 3 Libertadores Cups, 12 Brazilian Leagues, 4 Brazil Cups (TOTAL: 19)
• SANTOS - 2 Intercontinental Cups, 3 Libertadores Cups, 8 Brazilian Leagues, 1 Brazil Cup (TOTAL: 14)
• SÃO PAULO - 1 World Cup, 2 Intercontinental Cups, 3 Libertadores Cups, 6 Brazilian Leagues, 1 Brazil Cup (TOTAL: 13)
• VASCO DA GAMA - 1 Libertadores Cup, 4 Brazilian Leagues, 1 Brazil Cup (TOTAL: 6)

Edited July 9, 2024 by Palmeiras_Fan

[east lower]

Wonderful full match and in colour screening of the 1966 World Cup Final on Channel 4 now.

[Sciatika]

Blimey. I always thought they played in black and white.

[Sciatika]

That boy Beckenbauer can play a bit

[Mark Kelly]

The pitch is terrible 

[chara]

11 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The pitch is terrible 

Good mate of mine was working on the groundstaff at Wembley for the WC and said ..as I recall.  that by the Final the pitch was not good and they resorted to painting parts of the pitch.

[Sciatika]

What colour?

[Ham]

Just now, Sciatika said:

What colour?

Black and white

[chara]

29 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

What colour?

He did it in Red White and Blue he said 😄...but THEY changed it to green!@