Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 29 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said: Based on what? If we can’t base it on goal returns then what do we base it on? I presume we base it on what we all believe the ability levels to be? In which case we have to put potential in there as well. If that’s what we’re basing it on then I’d say Palmer is a clear upgrade and I would probably say Jackson if not an upgrade, definitely isn’t a downgrade based on the impact he has on the team with his work rate plus his potential to improve over the next few seasons. The thing with Havertz is that he often ghosted through games, making very little impact and he also showed no real sign of improvement over his time here. This may be a bit harsh, but he strikes me as a bit lazy. Palmer was not bought to replace Havertz- he was bought to replace Ziyech. Now THAT is a clear upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
My Blood Is Blue Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 18 minutes ago, chrisb said: Havertz is an enigma. He was touted as a generational talent but has so far failed to deliver. Does anyone actually know what his best position is? He just seems to drift around the periphery of games occasionally popping up with a goal or an assist but in general the game seems to just pass him by. I can honestly say I don’t miss him and think that the £65m we got for him was damn good business. That was always one of my biggest issues, he doesn't seem to fit any position. He is not a striker, he is definitely not a winger, he isn't a CM and he isn't good enough to play the 'number 10' role and so where do you play him?! He is a luxury player that isn't very luxurious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 41 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said: He is a bit lazy . Maybe a lot lazy. In a very decent team he will do ok . He has reasonable pace, can kick with either foot, not bad with his head. However , he won’t get stuck in when the going gets tough, he won’t throw his face in amongst the leather, he’s not a leader, he doesn’t create a lot for other people and he’s not a real instinctive goalscorer. His record says it all. With the chances we create we need a modern day Kerry Dixon. Nothing fancy. That bloke could not trap a bag of cement but I watched him score 40+ goals once in the top league. I was watching a re run of the famous England v Argentina Hand of God game recently, and there I spied sitting on the bench chewing gum was Kerry Dixon! I swear if they had brought him on , he wouldn’t have danced past 8 players from the half way line and scored , but he would probably knocked one in off the back of his arse. Also our shooting from distance is shocking. One of my best mates when we were growing up was half decent at football and played in the same youth side as Kerry Dixon which from memory was Dunstable Town ( we lived in Dunstable at the time) He told me at the time that Kerry Dixon would regularly come deep , pick the ball up in his own half , beat all the opposition players , come back , do it again and score at will and at the time he had long hair half way down his back to boot ! He had skills . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post martin1905 Posted April 25 Popular Post Share Posted April 25 (edited) This forum at times is incredible. I've just found myself defending Cole Palmer on one thread only to come on here and see the talk about Havertz. I took a lot of stick for my view on Havertz, when we signed him and for continuing to back him but let's have it right, I was completely wrong. He was fucking shit for us. You can argue we haven't improved on the Havertz of this season at Arsenal, although toud be wrong, but we 100% have improved on the shower of shit we watched for three years whilst he was here. Edited April 25 by martin1905 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 45 minutes ago, martin1905 said: This forum at times is incredible. I've just found myself defending Cole Palmer on one thread only to come on here and see the talk about Havertz. I took a lot of stick for my view on Havertz, when we signed him and for continuing to back him but let's have it right, I was completely wrong. He was fucking shit for us. You can argue we haven't improved on the Havertz of this season at Arsenal, although toud be wrong, but we 100% have improved on the shower of shit we watched for three years whilst he was here. What do you call the shower we washed in the cup semi final and this season Martin? Palmer is an upgrade. The others - no. We have changed the system from being ultra systems oriented under Tuchel, suffocating attacking freedom and total goal output to playing like a basketball team under Potterchino. Edited April 25 by Max Fowler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: What do you call the shower we washed in the cup semi final and this season Martin? Was referring to Havertz being a shower of shit for 3 years not us as a team. Pretty sure I've made my views perfectly clear on this side. 7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Palmer is an upgrade. The others - no. So we have upgraded on him then, no? Although the debate seems to be about Jackson for some reason, Havertz has spent the vast majority of this season not playing as a centre forward so not sure why. But..... No way in a million years would I swap Jackson for Havertz. In fact I would say, in my opinion, Jackson would be much better for Arsenal than Havertz and would probably make the difference to them winning the league. 7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: We have changed the system from being ultra systems oriented under Tuchel, suffocating attacking freedom and total goal output to playing like a basketball team under Potterchino. And Havertz has managed a mighty 11 goals for Arteta's dominate, attacking Arsenal so agin not sure your point. Take a look at who he's scored against too Max, it's pretty telling, not a single goal against the top 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Here's another fact for you. Havertz was part of a team that won far more matches and more important games for us than ANY of the current crop. Havertz was a victim of the transition like so many of our players. Did he throw in the towel? Maybe - but I am simply talking about quality. Here's the final example - WHO DID WE SCORE MORE GOALS UNDER? TUCHEL OR POCH? There's a clear answer - we score far more goals under Poch. Does that mean Poch was a better manager than Tuchel for us??? NO!!! Does that also mean he got the attack firing better for us than Tuchel? Also no! Why? Because you cannot separate attack from defence - football is a team sport and every aspect is interconnected, especially nowadays. If we score a ton of goals but win no matches (as in this season) I could not care less. Havertz was part of a winning team which this team has come nowhere near. 65 million was a fair price - but we should have bought a clear upgrade, not messed around in the bargain bins for Jackson (or at least had Jackson as a second striker to a proper striker). IS THAT SO CONTROVERSIAL?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Max, you are wrong, unless we manage 16 goals in the next 6 games we will have scored less than Tuchels only full season. Stop making things up to suit your agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 2 minutes ago, martin1905 said: Was referring to Havertz being a shower of shit for 3 years not us as a team. Pretty sure I've made my views perfectly clear on this side. So we have upgraded on him then, no? Although the debate seems to be about Jackson for some reason, Havertz has spent the vast majority of this season not playing as a centre forward so not sure why. But..... No way in a million years would I swap Jackson for Havertz. In fact I would say, in my opinion, Jackson would be much better for Arsenal than Havertz and would probably make the difference to them winning the league. And Havertz has managed a mighty 11 goals for Arteta's dominate, attacking Arsenal so agin not sure your point. Take a look at who he's scored against too Max, it's pretty telling, not a single goal against the top 6. And Jackson has scored 3 of his 10 Premier League goals against a 9 man Spurs. The reason why it's a comparison is as follows Havertz played the VAST MAJORITY of games for us as CF. I don't care where he plays for Arsenal. I don't care about his record for Arsenal. He was our CF and we replaced him with Jackson. Simple. Your man Tuchel - who is in your profile picture, would disagree so strongly on Havertz being a shower of shit for him that you would change your picture quicker than I could say Nicolas Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: 65 million was a fair price - but we should have bought a clear upgrade, not messed around in the bargain bins for Jackson (or at least had Jackson as a second striker to a proper striker). IS THAT SO CONTROVERSIAL?!?! We did Max, his name is Cole Palmer or maybe we bought Cole Palmer and Jackson for a fraction more than what we sold Havertz for. Whatever way you look at it both players are a clear improvement on Havertz so fair play to the board on this one. Edited April 25 by martin1905 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Just now, Max Fowler said: Because you cannot separate attack from defence - football is a team sport and every aspect is interconnected, especially nowadays. I know someone who can do that and has been proving it on a weekly basis , twice in cup weeks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 2 minutes ago, martin1905 said: Max, you are wrong, unless we manage 16 goals in the next 6 games we will have scored less than Tuchels only full season. Stop making things up to suit your agenda. Interesting. I actually am wrong and I admit I am wrong. Wow - I forgot how many goals we scored that season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: The reason why it's a comparison is as follows Havertz played the VAST MAJORITY of games for us as CF. I don't care where he plays for Arsenal. I don't care about his record for Arsenal. He was our CF and we replaced him with Jackson. Simple. Who is clearly a better striker. Why you struggling with this so much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 2 minutes ago, martin1905 said: We did Max, his name is Cole Palmer or maybe we bought Cole Palmer and Jackson for a fraction more than what we sold Havertz for. Whatever way you look at it both players are a clear improvement on Havertz so full play to the board on this one. Jackson is not a clear improvement on Havertz Martin, no way. But we'll have to agree to disagree 💙 I am not even arguing Havertz is good. I am just arguing Jackson is not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 Just now, Max Fowler said: Jackson is not a clear improvement on Havertz Martin, no way. But we'll have to agree to disagree 💙 I am not even arguing Havertz is good. I am just arguing Jackson is not better. Miles better than Havertz as a striker and Cole Palmer is on a different planet so we have improved on him massively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 My word, Kai Havertz our former centre forward, scored a mighty 19 Premier league goals in three seasons. 4 , 8 , 7 goals in his three years. Jackson has 10 this season, with 6 games left. Why is this debate even occurring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 2 minutes ago, martin1905 said: Miles better than Havertz as a striker and Cole Palmer is on a different planet so we have improved on him massively. Except nearly every site rating Havertz vs Jackson rates Havertz as the better / more valuable player - go figure 🤦♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 minute ago, martin1905 said: My word, Kai Havertz our former centre forward, scored a mighty 19 Premier league goals in three seasons. 4 , 8 , 7 goals in his three years. Jackson has 10 this season, with 6 games left. Why is this debate even occurring? Let's leave it there Martin. We are not going to agree 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 8 minutes ago, martin1905 said: My word, Kai Havertz our former centre forward, scored a mighty 19 Premier league goals in three seasons. 4 , 8 , 7 goals in his three years. Jackson has 10 this season, with 6 games left. Why is this debate even occurring? Alright one last comment which you still haven't answered Martin: I admit I was wrong about us scoring less under Tuchel. BUT You won't admit that Tuchel thought Havertz was brilliant for him. He wouldn't privately think Havertz was a waste of space. He absolutely loved Havertz Now maybe you disagree with Tuchel in which case fair enough, but just know if you follow this line of argument you ARE disagreeing with TT who loved Kai and thought he was crucial, prolific or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 8 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Alright one last comment which you still haven't answered Martin: I admit I was wrong about us scoring less under Tuchel. BUT You won't admit that Tuchel thought Havertz was brilliant for him. He wouldn't privately think Havertz was a waste of space. He absolutely loved Havertz Now maybe you disagree with Tuchel in which case fair enough, but just know if you follow this line of argument you ARE disagreeing with TT who loved Kai and thought he was crucial, prolific or not. Not to answer for Martin , but coaches do really seem to like players who can play in multiple positions and "do a job". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 24 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: Not to answer for Martin , but coaches do really seem to like players who can play in multiple positions and "do a job". Now we don't know how much Tuchel would have liked Jackson - maybe more than Havertz. But the idea that Havertz was terrible for us for three years is a nonsense. If you disagree with that you just completely go against everything TT has ever said about Kai ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 18 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Now we don't know how much Tuchel would have liked Jackson - maybe more than Havertz. But the idea that Havertz was terrible for us for three years is a nonsense. If you disagree with that you just completely go against everything TT has ever said about Kai ever. Not terrible , just meh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backbiter Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 19 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Now we don't know how much Tuchel would have liked Jackson - maybe more than Havertz. But the idea that Havertz was terrible for us for three years is a nonsense. If you disagree with that you just completely go against everything TT has ever said about Kai ever. He showed flashes of real quality, but generally he ranged from underwhelming to massively disappointing,. To my mind that was largely down to the huge fee we paid and the OTT comments about him from Germany, which built up our expectations that he was unable to live up to. He's a strange player to watch, but he seems to be finding some form at Arsenal after a very slow start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, Max Fowler said: Alright one last comment which you still haven't answered Martin: I admit I was wrong about us scoring less under Tuchel. BUT You won't admit that Tuchel thought Havertz was brilliant for him. He wouldn't privately think Havertz was a waste of space. He absolutely loved Havertz Now maybe you disagree with Tuchel in which case fair enough, but just know if you follow this line of argument you ARE disagreeing with TT who loved Kai and thought he was crucial, prolific or not. I don't know what Tuchel thought but I do know that after 6 months of him being manager we went and spent £100m on Lukaku. I also know in that time Havertz started just 29 league games under Tuchel. Now to make it fair I've taken out the 6 games he was injured or had Covid but that still means he only started 29 games out of a possible 51. After Lukaku left Havertz started 5 of the next 6 but is that because Tuchel thought he was brilliant or we had no one else. When we did have other options he only started 56% of matches under Tuchel so make of that what you will. Really not sure where you are going with this though Max, you are the one that started banging on about how we let him go and didn't improve on him. I've given you my reasons as to why I think your wrong now your going on about whether or not I agree with your interpretation that Tuchel thought he was brilliant, because I have him as my profile picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said: Not terrible , just meh I agree, but you could say exactly the same for Jackson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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