Potential punishment

[exiledblue]

It seems more and more likely we will get a relegation and I am wondering if it wouldnt be a blessing in disguise.

A season in the championship might give the team time to grow and given most are on 7 year contracts they will not easily move on and we could come back strongly (or not)

I just would like them to decide quickly what and if a punishment is coming.

[Mark Kelly]

6 minutes ago, exiledblue said:

It seems more and more likely we will get a relegation and I am wondering if it wouldnt be a blessing in disguise.

A season in the championship might give the team time to grow and given most are on 7 year contracts they will not easily move on and we could come back strongly (or not)

I just would like them to decide quickly what and if a punishment is coming.

I think we're more than capable of achieving that under our own steam.

I also think it's worth pointing out that despite the bleating in the media and the fans forums of our rivals , Everton and City have been charged and as far as I can recall , we haven't been . 

[exiledblue]

18 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think we're more than capable of achieving that under our own steam.

I also think it's worth pointing out that despite the bleating in the media and the fans forums of our rivals , Everton and City have been charged and as far as I can recall , we haven't been . 

Indeed we are but if the FA are to do it or not I hope they advise us soon. If it were to happen, also by our own doing, it wouldnt be a disaster. Could even be quite fun, either way we wont be competiting to get in the CL for a while

The delay in punishing City is incredible, not only fines, relegation etc but also in taking away titles during the many years covered.

[thevelourfog]

Why does it seem "more and more likely" we will get a relegation? Because more people have written about it?

I feel certain we will face charges. On what is unclear. We owned up to and provided evidence for some, so they are a given. The substance behind what was alleged in the Guardian's Cypriot papers coverage is harder to form a view on. I imagine they would be hard to prove to a criminal standard, but given the burden of proof is balance of probabilities and that our unprompted admission of the other irregularities gives good reason to think it probable we made further hidden payments, we are surely vulnerable there.

The Everton judgement noted they made no attempt to hide their infraction or deliberately mislead, when we are alleged to have done precisely that. So I expect a sterner punishment.

It will be a points deduction, not one that itself would result in relegation but we may well do the rest of that work. All imo, of course.

[Mark Kelly]

14 minutes ago, exiledblue said:

Indeed we are but if the FA are to do it or not I hope they advise us soon. If it were to happen, also by our own doing, it wouldnt be a disaster. Could even be quite fun, either way we wont be competiting to get in the CL for a while

The delay in punishing City is incredible, not only fines, relegation etc but also in taking away titles during the many years covered.

I read somewhere that for once charge there were 380 pages of information to go through in the Everton case  and it took the league , I think , eight months to process it and come to their decision , now imagine the same 115 times in regards to City ! 

Peps kid will probably be managing City when they get the charges and are banned from Inter-galactic competition .

[Ham]

A thought occurred to me about a potential defence/mitigation from the club.

Didn't Chelsea and Roman already face the ultimate sanction/penalty? 

Could the PL conclude that self reporting during the due diligence work together with the above factor means there is no case to answer?

 

[Dwmh]

On 27/11/2023 at 11:36, exiledblue said:

It seems more and more likely we will get a relegation and I am wondering if it wouldnt be a blessing in disguise.

A season in the championship might give the team time to grow and given most are on 7 year contracts they will not easily move on and we could come back strongly (or not)

I just would like them to decide quickly what and if a punishment is coming.

A season in the championship with our wage bill would mean we break FFP for that year and next 2 years which will average in that year.
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned or a WC winner relegated

There'd be a bigger rush for the exit than there was when RA left.  Only the price levels would be a lot lot lower and Saudi would not help us out.

It would kill CFC as we know it and would equally kill CFC project as the Creamcakes know it - they would have to exit to a Vulture investor.

On 27/11/2023 at 11:47, Mark Kelly said:

I think we're more than capable of achieving that under our own steam.

🙂  actually this year is going to be difficult to get relegated.  1 point a game is par for staying up, and we are just 3 points above that level which might put us just a couple of placed clear.  But thanks to the Everton deduction and all around crapness, we are actually in the top 10 as of today.

On 27/11/2023 at 12:27, thevelourfog said:

Why does it seem "more and more likely" we will get a relegation? Because more people have written about it?

Neatly put.  
Specifically journalists have worked out that many oppo fans want to read that headline.

[Mark Kelly]

Apparently the ever eager Premier League have set a date for the independent enquiry against City , they've not hung about as they must be incensed at the flagrant abuse of the laws so they've pencilled it in for "Some time in Autumn 2024" . 

As reported in the Daily Mail who once again have not mentioned Chelsea in the article which was refreshing to say the least. 

[Blue Moon]

4 hours ago, Ham said:

A thought occurred to me about a potential defence/mitigation from the club.

Didn't Chelsea and Roman already face the ultimate sanction/penalty? 

Could the PL conclude that self reporting during the due diligence work together with the above factor means there is no case to answer?

 

You mean it would be double jeopardy, and thus illegal?

[Ham]

2 hours ago, Blue Moon said:

You mean it would be double jeopardy, and thus illegal?

No. Not from a legal standpoint per se. More a case of what would be seen as reasonable.

We could argue that any sins committed by RA have already resulted in the most extreme sanctions.

By disclosing issues during due diligence, it would be very unfair on the new owners if their huge investment was subsequently put in jeopardy by further punishment. 

 

[Dwmh]

46 minutes ago, Ham said:

We could argue that any sins committed by RA have already resulted in the most extreme sanctions.

I think the counter argument is that the sanctions were for someone elses sins.  Even if we don't necessarily agree who ultimately is responsible.

[Ham]

19 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

I think the counter argument is that the sanctions were for someone elses sins.  Even if we don't necessarily agree who ultimately is responsible.

No, Roman was most certainly considered complicit when you consider the language used by the likes of Dorries and Bryant. 

 

[Dwmh]

11 minutes ago, Ham said:

No, Roman was most certainly considered complicit when you consider the language used by the likes of Dorries and Bryant. 

I wasn't listening to them at the time, so I take that back, a little.  FFS who are Dorries and Bryant when it comes to a World War.

[Sciatika]

No one bothers with anything Bryant says. He had been forced to admit that he used parliamentary privilege to lie to the House.

[Ham]

https://archive.ph/2023.11.30-113851/https://theathletic.com/5072612/2023/11/18/everton-ffp-chelsea-manchester-city/

One again, we're linked in with a story about Everton and City. 

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

I wasn't listening to them at the time, so I take that back, a little.  FFS who are Dorries and Bryant when it comes to a World War.

Answer is = Point scoring, self publicists!

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

https://archive.ph/2023.11.30-113851/https://theathletic.com/5072612/2023/11/18/everton-ffp-chelsea-manchester-city/

One again, we're linked in with a story about Everton and City. 

But according to the article 'Chelsea have not disputed the allegations " = GUILTY 

We must be like the Royal Family of football then. Not commented upon, so guilty. Laughable 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

https://archive.ph/2023.11.30-113851/https://theathletic.com/5072612/2023/11/18/everton-ffp-chelsea-manchester-city/

One again, we're linked in with a story about Everton and City. 

Quote

At a time like this, maybe a useful starting point is to recall the words of Ivan Gazidis, who, after eight years working as deputy commissioner for Major League Soccer (MLS) in the United States, was shocked by what he found when he arrived in the Premier League as chief executive of Arsenal.

“It’s a bit like the Wild West,” he said in early 2009. “I see practices here that would not be permissible in U.S. sports leagues.”

He means taking risks and losing money.  I don't think US Sports have a clue what real competitive business is about.  There is no guarantee of profit and if you lose money you get punished twice.

[chara]

3 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

He means taking risks and losing money.  I don't think US Sports have a clue what real competitive business is about.  There is no guarantee of profit and if you lose money you get punished twice.

FWIW.....Colorado is about the size of Mainland UK...(Add NI and it is a tad smaller)...Denver has NFL,Football, NHL.Ice Hockey. NBC Basketball and MLS "Soccer". + College Football and... gulp,,Lacrosse!...all succesful in cycles and well attended BUT no regional or local competition except maybe in College football.....{..aside..I once had an emergency and had to cry off work the same day The Bronco's had a big bplayoff game....my absence wasn't questioned as it was accepted I was about the only guy who wouldn't have taken a sick day!}

State fan loyalty etc is focused  on one club in the Major Sports....I don't have to point out the obvious differences in revenue pool...be it game attendance or sponsorship deals etc..... West London..Chelsea/Fulham N.London..well you know.... WHam Palace then the multitude of lower league clubs....Manchester Liverpool The Midlands,,,it truly is a wide open savage business everyone trying to get ahead on the those who stumble!

 

[xceleryx]

15 hours ago, Ham said:

Could the PL conclude that self reporting during the due diligence work together with the above factor means there is no case to answer?

AFAIK we're dealing with two different situations. The first being the book issues inherited from Roman's tenure that current ownership came forward with and self reported, the second being the alleged illegal payments and transfer dealings around players like Willian, Eto'o, etc that came forward from the more recent leaks - again happening under Roman's ownership and something the current regime would've had no real knowledge of. 

We may get some leniency for the self reported matters, the leak related matters not so much I would imagine. Although, given it all happened under old ownership that's now been removed, along with all the staff changeover in those higher roles, I doubt anyone involved (if there's others) remain. So that may or may not have an influence on any outcome also. 

[Mark Kelly]

Considering any mismanagement and under the counter payments ( that I believe every club is guilty of and has been for years) happened under Roman's tenure then one would hope that having his club forcibly taken from him and the proceeds donated to a charity would be punishment enough to be honest. It won't be though as I'm sure they'll be only too keen to continue twisting the knife. Roll on the Super-League .

[east lower]

24 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

………………Roll on the Super-League .

Yep, I’ve commented before that all the FA/PL are doing currently to ‘punish’ those clubs they see fit to for the alleged financial irregularities/misconduct, will result in the move to a European Super League coming sooner than it might have done. 
 

And serves them right. The blow for most fans who regularly attend away games will exist, but as one of those and one who over the next three weeks is faced with a mid-week jaunt up to Manchester, then days later up to Merseyside and to top it off a Xmas Eve trip to Wolverhampton then they (PL/FA/Sky) deserve it. 
 

They treat fans like the crap on the bottom of their shoe's, VAR another example - Football is for the fans was a strapline trotted out, well let the FA/PL put out a poll to STH’s of every PL club and then on the basis of that poll see if we continue with VAR.

I, and a few will miss out on away games, but on the flip side the money saved will get me a trip to Milan and Madrid instead for a few days - Let’s go for it!

EDIT: Afterthought - We might not be good enough to get the invitation to the ESL now 🤣

Edited December 1, 2023 by east lower

[Dwmh]

2 hours ago, east lower said:

Yep, I’ve commented before that all the FA/PL are doing currently to ‘punish’ those clubs they see fit to for the alleged financial irregularities/misconduct, will result in the move to a European Super League coming sooner than it might have done. 

True.  Personally I think it is a great shame that FA/PL would rather indulge in cannibalism of existing teams, when the big big opportunity in football is not ESL but inviting the top 8 teams from Europ into the Prem.  That is what would make English football stand out even further from club and international football anywhere else in the world.
There are 3 big football competitions in the world, revenue and TV figures dwarf everything else.  One of them is every 4 years.  Lets combine the other two to create the ultimate in Football viewing.

2 hours ago, east lower said:

EDIT: Afterthought - We might not be good enough to get the invitation to the ESL now 🤣

This is of course the nightmare scenario for Clearlake.  It is on the other hand perfect timing for Newcastle who are becoming a top 4 team based on a far wiser recritment policy and a takeover 7 months earlier than ours.

[chara]

@east lower and @Dwmh...agree with both posts...only additional thought is the difference in the circumstances with the Newcastle take over,,,out of a certain chaos but mainly a business created one by the owner allowing for negotiations and deeper look at it all...as opposed to a full scale assault on RA and by extension Chelsea leading to a forced sale under less than calm circumstances and inevitably creating almost a perfect storm for Chelsea detractors et al,

Long term Clearlake have no problems really...a huge property asset in their hands...and I have no confidence in any so called built in commitment clause in the sale of the club.

For all the gleeful "other" fans..... "ask not for whom the bell tolls"..... it tolls for every club............ 

[Dwmh]

36 minutes ago, chara said:

Long term Clearlake have no problems really...a huge property asset in their hands...

How much is a huge property asset in London?  I really don't know.  Millions certainly.  But £100mn?  £200mn? for the Bridge - even assuming the pitch owners roll over.
Anyone got a clue?  And how much to BUY and develop Earls Court?  Probably more.
Assuming £70 a ticket the gate takings at a home match are £3m a game.  Perhaps £80m a season - but only if you run a top class football team at the same time.  Without big money going into the first XI revenue would be a lot smaller.

I'm just throwing numbers about.  Clearlake put £2bn into buying the club, another £billion into the team and running costs so far.  Unless the property part of the club can raise £500mn cash or more, it really is pretty irrelevant to the business model and the success of either Chelsea or Clearlake.

I'd also point out that Covid, WFH and technology* like mega TV screens has changed a lot of things, and i doubt that the market forces are pushing towards big stadia as hard as they were 4 years ago when Spurs stadium opened.

*Anyone heard of Infinite Athlete?  Know what they do?  Me neither, but I suspect it has something to do with TV football.