Manchester City 1 Chelsea 0

[xceleryx]

37 minutes ago, kev61 said:

I don't get it.Chabolah is consistently better than the very expensive duds.

We have the 'experts' saying he not good enough ....compared to what?!!

He's not though that's the thing, it's more just flavour of the month because he's had a couple decent enough performances lately in a side where other defenders have looked a little rough. He was straight cheeks in the games vs Leicester, Newcastle and Brentford if you go a bit further back. And if you look back beyond just this season and pre-injury he wasn't particularly good either. 

I think some are forgetting just how sloppy he was at times but had both Thiago Silva and Rudiger to fall back upon. 

[Floyd25]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Disasi tends to be more progressive which is backed statistically. All in all his profile and strengths are of more use and benefit, even if from an ability perspective he difference is marginal between Chalobah and himself. 

Badiashile on the other hand has a higher ceiling overall in terms of talent, however hampered by injuries outside of that stretch last season where he looked really good. He's a better passer than Chalobah generally speaking, stronger in the air, and overall just has a bit more to his game. Obviously he's not been in any sort of form since returning, but looking at his overall body of work it's shown more promise IMO. 

The stats suggest that they’ve lagged behind Chalo in quite a few areas this season though, that’s all I’m saying. Although I agree with you that Badiashile is a better passer of the ball and you might be right, perhaps he does have the higher ceiling, but that remains to be seen. I don’t have that much confidence in him or Disasi, but that’s just my opinion, time will tell. 

Edited April 23 by Floyd25

[xceleryx]

46 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

What's alarming is we can't realistically sell 4 defenders. We won't realistically buy 2 either, nor can we rely on Fofana coming back. We will very likely go for Colwill, Disasi, Badiashille, Fofana + 1 (Guehi?) as our centre-backs next season.

Again - I respect your argument around the profit motive for selling Chalobah and age reasons for selling Silva (hopefully Belle will reveal whether he was forced out or not...) That's more honest that making a "quality" argument IMO.

It's simply still a remarkable situation that for understandable reasons or not, we are set to keep two defenders who the manager clearly trusts less for the biggest game of the season and get rid of two that he thinks are the best options.

You're projecting a little bit here, Max. 

Injuries/fitness  have played a role in why certain players have been picked over others in these so called "biggest games" lately. There's just as much probability that one or neither of Chalobah or Thiago Silva would've been starting these games had Colwill or the ever present Disasi been fit. 

[Max Fowler]

15 minutes ago, Floyd25 said:

The stats suggest that they’ve lagged behind Chalo in quite a few areas this season though, that’s all I’m saying. Although I agree with you that Badiashile is a better passer of the ball and you might be right, perhaps he does have the higher ceiling, but that remains to be seen. I don’t have that much confidence in him or Disasi, but that’s just my opinion, time will tell. 

I'm sorry to go against @xceleryx but "higher ceiling" and "has a bit more to his game" ring of buzzwords not backed up by the evidence. In the PL, we have gained more points and conceded less goals with Chalobah starting.

[xceleryx]

19 minutes ago, Floyd25 said:

The stats suggest that they’ve lagged behind Chalo in quite a few areas this season though, that’s all I’m saying. Although I agree with you that Badiashile is a better passer of the ball and you might be right, perhaps he does have the higher ceiling, but that remains to be seen. I don’t have that much confidence in him or Disasi, but that’s just my opinion, time will tell. 

Curious to see where this is showcased? As when you do player comparisons for this season they're all fairly even with the biggest differing factors being headers won, tackles, and passing progression. 

Eg: https://ibb.co/F68GVdP

But yeah, it is a wait and see on some and if they ultimately deliver. One CB in the summer is a must, I wouldn't sneeze at two, but may also depend on the health of Fofana and Badiashile.

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

You're projecting a little bit here, Max. 

Injuries/fitness  have played a role in why certain players have been picked over others in these so called "biggest games" lately. There's just as much probability that one or neither of Chalobah or Thiago Silva would've been starting these games had Colwill or the ever present Disasi been fit. 

Disasi was fit. Poch realised that playing a defender who has been the "ever present" first choice in us conceding 2.375 goals per game over the last 2 months was not sustainable for a cup semi final, and our first clean sheet since January (when Thiago Silva was playing) was worth building upon.

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Curious to see where this is showcased? As when you do player comparisons for this season they're all fairly even with the biggest differing factors being headers won, tackles, and passing progression. 

Eg: https://ibb.co/F68GVdP

But yeah, it is a wait and see on some and if they ultimately deliver. One CB in the summer is a must, I wouldn't sneeze at two, but may also depend on the health of Fofana and Badiashile.

I think we would not be having this debate if you admitted that none of them are good enough, Chalobah is worth selling for the Cobham profit, and Thiago Silva for his age. 

I personally would prefer to keep Chalo for his Chelsea history and T Silva for one more season for his experience. It's the idea that Disasi and Badiashille are way better than Thiago now that has always rubbed me the wrong way (clearly untrue) and even that they are clearly better than Chalobah (contentious at best).

Edited April 23 by Max Fowler

[xceleryx]

4 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I'm sorry to go against @xceleryx but "higher ceiling" and "has a bit more to his game" ring of buzzwords not backed up by the evidence. In the PL, we have gained more points and conceded less goals with Chalobah starting.

Chalobah has 6 league appearances since returning from injury.

4 of those 6 were starts, we've conceded 6 goals in those games (7 in total if you wish to include that he was on the pitch when Rodri scored in the 1-1 draw).

5 goals in the 3 FA Cup game he started.

So a total of 11 goals in 7 starts - or 12 goals in 8 appearances total. 

Not exactly a glowing record in itself now is it. 

[xceleryx]

6 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Disasi was fit. Poch realised that playing a defender who has been the "ever present" first choice in us conceding 2.375 goals per game over the last 2 months was not sustainable for a cup semi final, and our first clean sheet since January (when Thiago Silva was playing) was worth building upon.

Fit enough to play from the bench, not necessarily to start- big difference. 

How many different partners has Disasi played with in that time? How many of matches came playing, or being moved out to RB?

Not as straight-forward as you're painting it.

[xceleryx]

6 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I think we would not be having this debate if you admitted that none of them are good enough, Chalobah is worth selling for the Cobham profit, and Thiago Silva for his age. 

I personally would prefer to keep Chalo for his Chelsea history and T Silva for one more season for his experience. It's the idea that Disasi and Badiashille are way better than Thiago now that has always rubbed me the wrong way (clearly untrue) and even that they are clearly better than Chalobah (contentious at best).

I've expressed months ago that Disasi is a good squad option but isn't a long-term starter, search it if you must.

Badiashile is still a bit of an unknown. His performances last season were better than anything Chalobah produced, but since then has struggled with injury and form. Hard to gauge things right now, even if IMO his talent level is higher. 

It's not always about talent and this gets overlooked by some at times. Sometimes you can sign players who aren't necessarily more talented but have skillsets that are more fitting, this is the case when comparing Disasi and Chalobah for example. 

Either way, we need at least one new starting calibre CB to arrive in the summer. With that possibly being two, depending on the health of others. Chalobah isn't a starter and is at best on a good day 4th choice, more likely 5th. He shouldn't be commanding this much of a fuss. 

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, xceleryx said:

I've expressed months ago that Disasi is a good squad option but isn't a long-term starter, search it if you must.

Badiashile is still a bit of an unknown. His performances last season were better than anything Chalobah produced, but since then has struggled with injury and form. Hard to gauge things right now, even if IMO his talent level is higher. 

It's not always about talent and this gets overlooked by some at times. Sometimes you can sign players who aren't necessarily more talented but have skillsets that are more fitting, this is the case when comparing Disasi and Chalobah for example. 

Either way, we need at least one new starting calibre CB to arrive in the summer. With that possibly being two, depending on the health of others. Chalobah isn't a starter and is at best on a good day 4th choice, more likely 5th. He shouldn't be commanding this much of a fuss. 

You place too much premium Badiashille having "talent". He's a defender - we need someone with the right mental, physical and basic defending qualities as much as anything else. Talent doesn't get you that far as a centre-back.

He has shown to lack what we need from a centre-back - concentration, leadership, mentality.

Badiashille may have had better performances last season, but Chalobah had better performances under Tuchel than Badiashille has ever produced for us, but of course they don't count because it's a different formation.

[Max Fowler]

18 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Chalobah has 6 league appearances since returning from injury.

4 of those 6 were starts, we've conceded 6 goals in those games (7 in total if you wish to include that he was on the pitch when Rodri scored in the 1-1 draw).

5 goals in the 3 FA Cup game he started.

So a total of 11 goals in 7 starts - or 12 goals in 8 appearances total. 

Not exactly a glowing record in itself now is it. 

Not glowing, but still better than the 19 goals in 8 games conceded with our "main man" Disasi.

[Max Fowler]

16 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Fit enough to play from the bench, not necessarily to start- big difference. 

How many different partners has Disasi played with in that time? How many of matches came playing, or being moved out to RB?

Not as straight-forward as you're painting it.

Look, I also have sympathy for Disasi - we're crap at defending as a team under Poch and it's not all his fault.

My biggest problem is that others on here (not you) banged on and on about benching Thiago Silva being the answer to all our problems and mentally masturbated about Disasi's one standout performance against Villa. Told me that Disasi was better on the ball than Thiago Silva - just patently untrue despite your progressive passing point.

Now unsurprisingly those people who told me that we would be so much better without Thiago Silva have disappeared into the wilderness and not admitted defeat. Forget Chalobah, in our recent run of games without Thiago (who has played most of the season) we conceded more goals than at any other point in the season.

[xceleryx]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

You place too much premium Badiashille having "talent". He's a defender - we need someone with the right mental, physical and basic defending qualities as much as anything else. Talent doesn't get you that far as a centre-back.

He has shown to lack what we need from a centre-back - concentration, leadership, mentality.

Badiashille may have had better performances last season, but Chalobah had better performances under Tuchel than Badiashille has ever produced for us, but of course they don't count because it's a different formation.

He's just turned 23 so I think having an emphasis on his talent is fair, particularly when I'd seen him play at Monaco previously and was impressed - something we saw glimpse of last season. Generally though I do agree, talent alone isn't enough. Skillset and what a player is able to provide in the position can be of more benefit short and long term. 

Not claimed Badiashile hasn't had lapses, he certainly has and that's been evident on numerous occasions this season. He has a lot to improve upon still, but if he does he'll be the better of the two IMO.

Hard to compare the two because of the different systems, whether one likes it or not, it does make a telling difference. You only need to look as far as the difference we saw in David Luiz when he moved between the two systems. 

I'll ask you this, what does Chalobah provide that stands out? He's not a leader either. He's prone to lapses. Is awful in the air. Isn't a physical presence despite being 6ft 3. Tidy enough passer without progressing it much. Nor is he strong in the tackle. 

His best assets are probably his speed and versatility, neither of which are difficult to replace or improve upon. He's a really solid utility player but that's more or less his cap. And if he's to play CB here then it's imperative he wins more aerial duels, there's no getting around that in a back four system.

[xceleryx]

3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Look, I also have sympathy for Disasi - we're crap at defending as a team under Poch and it's not all his fault.

My biggest problem is that others on here (not you) banged on and on about benching Thiago Silva being the answer to all our problems and mentally masturbated about Disasi's one standout performance against Villa. Told me that Disasi was better on the ball than Thiago Silva - just patently untrue despite your progressive passing point.

Now unsurprisingly those people who told me that we would be so much better without Thiago Silva have disappeared into the wilderness and not admitted defeat. Forget Chalobah, in our recent run of games without Thiago (who has played most of the season) we conceded more goals than at any other point in the season.

The Thiago Silva thing for me was more of what we have to adjust to as a team to accommodate him in the side, and I've stressed this before at the time.

We have to play that little bit deeper and he needs greater support in the wider areas from his fullback. That's just the unfortunate nature of things with his lack of leg speed. As we tend to shift into a back three type shape in possession it then means Thiago has to be protected by being played central, this puts the other CB into a RB role and then the LB tucks in to form the three (big part in why Colwill also played LB this season). 

That however creates other issues because it means no LB to overlap on the left and support the winger, ultimately leading to an overload down the right and making it easier for teams to combat. 

Ideally when a side transitions into a back three with the ball the two CB's split off and it's the DM that drops between the two. We've both seen and done this when Thiago Silva was out of the team. It meant greater balance down the left and so on. Again, not a knock on TS himself but there was a better balance to our play at times by having this change made. Now that he's back in the team we're going to see either the LB tucking, allowing Thiago to stay central, or we'll see one of Enzo or Caicedo likely to drop back into one of the wide CB roles to collect the ball and build our play through. 

[Max Fowler]

59 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

The Thiago Silva thing for me was more of what we have to adjust to as a team to accommodate him in the side, and I've stressed this before at the time.

We have to play that little bit deeper and he needs greater support in the wider areas from his fullback. That's just the unfortunate nature of things with his lack of leg speed. As we tend to shift into a back three type shape in possession it then means Thiago has to be protected by being played central, this puts the other CB into a RB role and then the LB tucks in to form the three (big part in why Colwill also played LB this season). 

That however creates other issues because it means no LB to overlap on the left and support the winger, ultimately leading to an overload down the right and making it easier for teams to combat. 

Ideally when a side transitions into a back three with the ball the two CB's split off and it's the DM that drops between the two. We've both seen and done this when Thiago Silva was out of the team. It meant greater balance down the left and so on. Again, not a knock on TS himself but there was a better balance to our play at times by having this change made. Now that he's back in the team we're going to see either the LB tucking, allowing Thiago to stay central, or we'll see one of Enzo or Caicedo likely to drop back into one of the wide CB roles to collect the ball and build our play through. 

You make good tactical points but I simply refute we had a better balance without him. We were an absolute mess while he was out of the side. The man’s 39 but without him we lacked the basics of organisation, leadership and defensive solidity. Of course we’re not perfect with him in either but we’ve spent 75 million on defenders who clearly are levels below him even at his age.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

He's just turned 23 so I think having an emphasis on his talent is fair, particularly when I'd seen him play at Monaco previously and was impressed - something we saw glimpse of last season. Generally though I do agree, talent alone isn't enough. Skillset and what a player is able to provide in the position can be of more benefit short and long term. 

Not claimed Badiashile hasn't had lapses, he certainly has and that's been evident on numerous occasions this season. He has a lot to improve upon still, but if he does he'll be the better of the two IMO.

Hard to compare the two because of the different systems, whether one likes it or not, it does make a telling difference. You only need to look as far as the difference we saw in David Luiz when he moved between the two systems. 

I'll ask you this, what does Chalobah provide that stands out? He's not a leader either. He's prone to lapses. Is awful in the air. Isn't a physical presence despite being 6ft 3. Tidy enough passer without progressing it much. Nor is he strong in the tackle. 

His best assets are probably his speed and versatility, neither of which are difficult to replace or improve upon. He's a really solid utility player but that's more or less his cap. And if he's to play CB here then it's imperative he wins more aerial duels, there's no getting around that in a back four system.

To me Chalobah knows what it takes and looks the most solid partner with Thiago, our best defender. He has grown up at Chelsea, played at the highest level under TT, and makes less mistakes than the Monaco boys. While they clearly feel the pressure, Chalo has grown up at Chelsea and looks the most mentally stable out of the three. There are some qualities that cannot be boiled down to data, even as I could find more stats to show us better with Chalobah.

Chalobah is still young and could be encouraged to work on his physical side of the game.

But again - I’m not even saying we should keep him - I’m contesting whether Disasi and Badiashille are better players or not.

 

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Disasi and Badiashille are better players or not.

 

Doesn't really matter, they ain't going anywhere whilst Stewart and winstanley are running the first team. 

[chiswickblue]

2 hours ago, ROTG said:

Doesn't really matter, they ain't going anywhere whilst Stewart and winstanley are running the first team. 

Plus there's the clear strategy to flog any academy products that attract interest, so with us possibly having 1-2 spare CBs in the summer, the powers that be will be pushing Chalobah out the door again, just as they were last summer. It doesn't seem to matter who performs and who doesn't, who is an ideal squad player and who isn't. All that matters it the financial impact of the deal.