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When? How? Why?


chara

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With the very welcomed, for me, freewheeling debates that spin off,for instance, Match discussions and other specific topics I wondered if The Mods might approve a catch all topic area covering the confusion we all feel and somewhere that doesn't lead us all swamping a topic with "natural" spin offs?

My sort of OG breakdown of the path leading to where we are today goes back to the self inflicted wounds of the transfer ban and the subsequent ,with infallible hindsight, less than impressive signings (some still somehow featuring in the debacle) when the ban was lifted..one obvious exception.

TT did an excellent job initially of dragging Chelsea upwards  but again with infallible hindsight he managed to paper over many issues only for HMG to step in and although I hate to say this TT  let his employers down by allowing personal issues to taint his working obligations regardless of how much sympathy we all have/had at the breakup.

New owners trying to make their mark with the inevitable mistakes including the disastrous GP appointment which included an equally inept, at Chelsea level, if quieter "support" staff.

The incoming "new" players only muddied the waters further and we suddenly found ourselves watching a rudderless ship with a less than competent crew from top to bottom.

Chelsea statistically could still be relegated..how does that make you all feel?

Frank has been brought in maybe as just a sacrificial figure to absorb the anger and blood lust of fans and the media but in fairness what on earth does anyone expect him to achieve except shepherd the Club to the end of the season hopefully merely battered.

Just an OG rambling start.......

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This has been brewing for years, I wish we had the old forum so I could pull up the receipts but I was of the opinion that season was going to be one very rocky ride. As it's turned out it's ended up worse than I had originally envisioned. Despite feeling we could finish as low as 7th this season, to be in the bottom half of the table was not something I could see. 

As odd as it is to say, I'm a big believer that winning the Champions League under Tuchel hindered us more than helped. It created this false sense of where we really where as a club, it papered over an array of problems held, and maybe even preserved the fate of a few players who arguably needed to have their futures looked at harder. Instead we trudged forward, tried to remedy things with a £100m outlay on a CF, then watched as the unsustainable standard that allowed our European success naturally falter. This then ended up compounded further with the unforeseen sanctions that hit and put us teetering on a knives edge. 

I'm neither here nor their right now on Boehly and Co's ownership, while I wasn't an advocate for Potter being hired (or Tuchel being sacked initially), I am kinda glad they've ripped the bandaid off. It may not be as kosher as some would like it and maybe in more normal circumstances a lot of what's happened gets done over a handful of years, but I do think it's been needed for some time. And sure, it's impended our season more than what's ideal but sometimes to progress you do need to take a couple steps backwards. Of course, only time is going to tell just how beneficial this all ends up but I do like the approach of having a proper footballing department in place for one. As doom and gloom as it may seem now, I can see the bones of an exciting side there if we can add a few more pieces that are complimentary to the direction we're trying to head towards.

It's not  going to happen overnight though, as much as we may all like that possibility. 

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27 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

 

As odd as it is to say, I'm a big believer that winning the Champions League under Tuchel hindered us more than helped. It created this false sense of where we really where as a club, 

So winning the most prized competition in europe can be a hindrance?

Mate you need to lie down in a darkened room and consider things.

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20 minutes ago, kev61 said:

So winning the most prized competition in europe can be a hindrance?

Mate you need to lie down in a darkened room and consider things.

Not all success is equal.

Teams can win things that then help paper over cracks, create a false reality of where a club is actually at, and even inflate expectations beyond what is reasonable to expect moving forward. 

For example; if we didn't win the Champions League we end up with an empty season - three on the trot actually because we won nothing the season prior, and wouldn't have won the Super Cup or CWC the year after either. That might have been enough for us to put into a different direction, make different decisions in the market, and so on. 

The fact we've not sniffed a league title since 2016/17 tells the wider story.

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17 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Not all success is equal.

Teams can win things that then help paper over cracks, create a false reality of where a club is actually at, and even inflate expectations beyond what is reasonable to expect moving forward. 

For example; if we didn't win the Champions League we end up with an empty season - three on the trot actually because we won nothing the season prior, and wouldn't have won the Super Cup or CWC the year after either. That might have been enough for us to put into a different direction, make different decisions in the market, and so on. 

The fact we've not sniffed a league title since 2016/17 tells the wider story.

2012 we papered over the cracks.Under Tuchel we dominated the champions league from start to finish.

There was no hindrance to our success in the premiership except for the government,lazy players and Americans that thought they knew best.

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1 hour ago, kev61 said:

2012 we papered over the cracks.Under Tuchel we dominated the champions league from start to finish.

There was no hindrance to our success in the premiership except for the government,lazy players and Americans that thought they knew best.

You still don't get it, it's fine. 

Going to save both our time and simply leave it at that. 

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5 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Not all success is equal.

Teams can win things that then help paper over cracks, create a false reality of where a club is actually at, and even inflate expectations beyond what is reasonable to expect moving forward. 

For example; if we didn't win the Champions League we end up with an empty season - three on the trot actually because we won nothing the season prior, and wouldn't have won the Super Cup or CWC the year after either. That might have been enough for us to put into a different direction, make different decisions in the market, and so on. 

The fact we've not sniffed a league title since 2016/17 tells the wider story.

Talking of the 2016/17 season, I well remember quite a few in the old forum saying that winning the Premiership that year merely papered over the cracks, so this papering over the cracks has been going on for some time!

Maybe this disastrous season is just what we needed to happen to fully realise what needs to be done to the squad. Let's just hope the new owners, the 'recruitment department' and the new manager are up to the task.

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@chara

Do any  of us really know why TT left?

I’ve heard so many different theories from his personal life to not getting on with TB to something ‘darker’ being hinted at on here but never explained (probably just as well).

I hated SFL being sacked but warmed to TT and if there hadn’t been ‘issues’ think him staying on would have been a positive thing and we certainly wouldn’t be where we are today ☹️

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3 hours ago, Bob Singleton said:

Let's just hope the new owners, the 'recruitment department' and the new manager are up to the task.

I wish I was(or were?) this optimistic.

As a fellow Norwegian once said, in a TV interview (he was the manager of Rosenborg -a major team in Norway):"It's hope in a hanging snore. Fishing snore!"

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10 hours ago, asvaberg said:

 

As a fellow Norwegian once said, in a TV interview (he was the manager of Rosenborg -a major team in Norway):"It's hope in a hanging snore. Fishing snore!"

If memory serves me right, Wasn't it a bad result against Rosenborg that was the end for Mourhino in his first spell with us?

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10 hours ago, JaneB said:

@chara

Do any  of us really know why TT left?

I’ve heard so many different theories from his personal life to not getting on with TB to something ‘darker’ being hinted at on here but never explained (probably just as well).

I hated SFL being sacked but warmed to TT and if there hadn’t been ‘issues’ think him staying on would have been a positive thing and we certainly wouldn’t be where we are today ☹️

I think it's safe to assume now that Tuchel didn't like what he heard from Boehly and Co and questioned there judgement.

We now know Tuchel was happy here and imo was still the best man for the job.The Americans came in like a bull in a china shop with crazy ideas and then implemented them.It has made us a laughing stock that will take many years to put right.

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20 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Not all success is equal.

Teams can win things that then help paper over cracks, create a false reality of where a club is actually at, and even inflate expectations beyond what is reasonable to expect moving forward. 

For example; if we didn't win the Champions League we end up with an empty season - three on the trot actually because we won nothing the season prior, and wouldn't have won the Super Cup or CWC the year after either. That might have been enough for us to put into a different direction, make different decisions in the market, and so on. 

The fact we've not sniffed a league title since 2016/17 tells the wider story.

Yep some good points however I would swap 3 premier league titles for 1 champions league win anytime.

The champions league win under Tuchel was the most exciting time in my whole time supporting Chelsea.

I couldn't care less if it disguised our frailties in the premier league.We outclassed Madrid and every other team in the best tournament in the world(that I never thought would happen in my lifetime)

So what I'm trying to say is I would rather win the champions league playing good football than win the premiership playing dull football under Mourhino.

Ask City fans would they rather win the champions league or the premiership.

 

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25 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Yep some good points however I would swap 3 premier league titles for 1 champions league win anytime.

The champions league win under Tuchel was the most exciting time in my whole time supporting Chelsea.

I couldn't care less if it disguised our frailties in the premier league.We outclassed Madrid and every other team in the best tournament in the world(that I never thought would happen in my lifetime)

So what I'm trying to say is I would rather win the champions league playing good football than win the premiership playing dull football under Mourhino.

Ask City fans would they rather win the champions league or the premiership.

 

Just to add to that.I predicted at least 10 years ago that the top teams in Europe would be looking to set up a super league.

The likes of Madrid,Barcelona,Munich,Psgand Juventus and even the premier league elite will not be able to resist the financial benefits.

It will happen it's only a question of when.Just like Rangers and Celtic will inevitably  join the english league.

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4 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Yep some good points however I would swap 3 premier league titles for 1 champions league win anytime.

The champions league win under Tuchel was the most exciting time in my whole time supporting Chelsea.

I couldn't care less if it disguised our frailties in the premier league.We outclassed Madrid and every other team in the best tournament in the world(that I never thought would happen in my lifetime)

So what I'm trying to say is I would rather win the champions league playing good football than win the premiership playing dull football under Mourhino.

Ask City fans would they rather win the champions league or the premiership.

 

I've always preferred domestic success over European, largely because to win a league title you have to be the best side in the league over 38 weeks. That to me is the hallmark of a genuinely good side, where as in the Champions League or other European competitions luck tends to play a bigger part - such as with favourable group stages or fixtures in the knockout rounds, and borderline decisions are more defining. A team doesn't necessarily need to be "the best" to win it so to speak. 

Don't get me wrong winning the Champions League is and was still great, I'm not dismissing the achievement whatsoever. To have seen it happen twice in my life time is something I'll always be thankful for, not everyone gets to see their side win it after all. But had we not won that second one in 2020/21 though, maybe it incites the changes needed that would've lead to us being a better side as a whole right now given what would've been a barren three years. 

As for Man City fans, it's different for them. They've won the league several times over in recent history, they've been the best side in the competition, so it's only natural for them to now want to cap that dominance off with a Champions League win.  If we were in their shoes I'd be wanting to win the Champions League more also - and we kinda were for a period in the early to mid 2000's. In ways it's a situational goal that'll change importance depending on where a club is. 

That said, I want to see us back competing for league titles over anything else. 

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9 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

I've always preferred domestic success over European, largely because to win a league title you have to be the best side in the league over 38 weeks. That to me is the hallmark of a genuinely good side, where as in the Champions League or other European competitions luck tends to play a bigger part - such as with favourable group stages or fixtures in the knockout rounds, and borderline decisions are more defining. A team doesn't necessarily need to be "the best" to win it so to speak. 

Don't get me wrong winning the Champions League is and was still great, I'm not dismissing the achievement whatsoever. To have seen it happen twice in my life time is something I'll always be thankful for, not everyone gets to see their side win it after all. But had we not won that second one in 2020/21 though, maybe it incites the changes needed that would've lead to us being a better side as a whole right now given what would've been a barren three years. 

As for Man City fans, it's different for them. They've won the league several times over in recent history, they've been the best side in the competition, so it's only natural for them to now want to cap that dominance off with a Champions League win.  If we were in their shoes I'd be wanting to win the Champions League more also - and we kinda were for a period in the early to mid 2000's. In ways it's a situational goal that'll change importance depending on where a club is. 

That said, I want to see us back competing for league titles over anything else. 

I agree with most of that.I can only speak for myself.I was delighted when we won the pl title under Mourhino,but I was also bored shitless with the way we played.

I would rather we played entertaining football than win things.

I think we have spent enough money to do both which is all the more tragic.

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9 hours ago, chara said:

OK..so Southampton can no longer overtake Chelsea...one down ..two to go before we can truly relax and brood...but which two?

Leicester play Everton tonight so guaranteed dropped points somewhere in the bottom 3. Games running out.

Leicester then play Arsenal whilst Man City play Leeds this week.

I think anyone from Leeds down is in trouble. 

 

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Just a few thoughts, some I suppose in direct response to things posted here, others more generally on the forum over the last season. 

Winning a CL is never, ever a hindrance of any kind. It is the exact purpose of football at the level Chelsea play at. You might take the view that it had an unhelpful impact in how it coloured the views of some around Chelsea ... But whose views? Supporters? They have no say in the operational or footballing decisions the club makes, so that couldn't have "hindered" the club. Did it colour the views of anyone making decisions at the club? I really doubt it, and no one could really solidly evidence a suggestion it did ... We went out and broke our transfer record just a month or two later, after spending a fortune on young, attacking players a year earlier. Putting aside the wisdom of these specific transfers, it clearly demonstrates we weren't resting on laurels as we have after some big wins (Mourinho's 3rd title comes to mind). I think it is very easy to forget the very real and good reason for optimism after that final in May 2021. We'd convincingly won the CL, and with a relatively very young side. It was perfectly reasonable to think those young-ish players (James, Mount, Chilwell, Christensen, Havertz ... Some might have even included Werner or Pulisic, although I personally didn't see it with them) were going to be the core of something more sustainably special, with the likes of Mendy and Rudiger playing brilliantly with years ahead of them and a head coach who just seemed a fit.

You know what? Sometimes things just don't work out. Sometimes there are clear reasons for that. Some of those reasons genuinely can be anticipated, many are visible only with hindsight. 

There's a phenomena here, and in football fandom generally, that almost rewards pessimism. If you're consistently down on the club or team because that is your dispostion rather than an analysis that actually stands up to reason, you "win" either way. You either get to see success and simply push back the date of the catastrophic collapse or you get to pull a big "I told you so!". It's why there's always been a consistent core of people who'll swear blind the world is ending. I am 100% confident in my recollection of the old board that no-one here was predicting what we have seen this season. Us being in relegation form and three managers in, Arsenal being top of the table basically until May. What we have seen is the culmination multiple factors, the overwhelming majority of them completely unforeseeable 18 months ago.

I think next season really tells us about these owners and our ongoing prospects. I do find it strange anyone would not think they are completely accountable for how disastrous this season has been. They wiped away the entire functioning infrastructure of the club, and it shows at every level. I think they'd say they were pulling off a plaster, so we'll see what merit there is to that next season.

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On 30/04/2023 at 03:10, xceleryx said:

This has been brewing for years, I wish we had the old forum so I could pull up the receipts but I was of the opinion that season was going to be one very rocky ride. As it's turned out it's ended up worse than I had originally envisioned. Despite feeling we could finish as low as 7th this season, to be in the bottom half of the table was not something I could see. 

 

If we were to go back a year where many "well informed" media types were predicting the demise of Chelsea FC as in their eyes the club was as culpable for the Ukraine war as  Roman Abramovich himself I think quite a few of us would have been prepared to accept a season narrowly missing relegation. People have very short memories, yet very high expectations, especially in football. We told ourselves that we would be in for a period of rebuilding then after losing a couple of games in a row the clamour began blaming the players, the manager and the owners.

 

On 30/04/2023 at 03:10, xceleryx said:

As odd as it is to say, I'm a big believer that winning the Champions League under Tuchel hindered us more than helped. It created this false sense of where we really where as a club, it papered over an array of problems held, and maybe even preserved the fate of a few players who arguably needed to have their futures looked at harder.

 

I have to agree with you. It papered over a multitude of cracks. You could argue that the years leading up to our first European Cup the club was in far ruder health than the same period prior to the second. The mere presence of Eden Hazard in the side masked the deficiencies in many other positions. At the end of the day the CL is really just a glorified knockout competition while the league is a more true barometer of a side's success and we haven't been near that for six years.

It's hard to stomach at times but we will have to learn to accept that success builds slowly, especially nowadays where every team in the league is able to compete at a reasonable level.

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