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Kalidou Koulibaly


JaneB

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  • 3 months later...

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@xceleryx

No real logic in your response, KK lasted played CL football in 2019, and during his time playing in the CL only managed to get out of the group stages twice to be KO in the last 16. You will also notice that his win percentage at Napoli in the CL is low.

I will go back to the facts, of KK get replaced by a younger CB at Napoli and they win the league, KK arrives at Chelsea as an much needed experience defender with CL pedigree, helps the team finish the season with the lowest number of points in the PL in the clubs history - Coincidence or just bad luck moving to the wrong team?

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1 hour ago, ROTG said:

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@xceleryx

No real logic in your response, KK lasted played CL football in 2019, and during his time playing in the CL only managed to get out of the group stages twice to be KO in the last 16. You will also notice that his win percentage at Napoli in the CL is low.

I will go back to the facts, of KK get replaced by a younger CB at Napoli and they win the league, KK arrives at Chelsea as an much needed experience defender with CL pedigree, helps the team finish the season with the lowest number of points in the PL in the clubs history - Coincidence or just bad luck moving to the wrong team?

No, there's actually plenty of logic in my response. His teams record in the competition is irrelevant when all I said was that he had Champions League pedigree, which is more than either Twarkoski or Mee can lay claim towards. Nothing more, nothing less.

As  someone that actually watches Serie A on a regular basis there's a world of context you're completely oblivious towards and it shows in your narrative. 

End of the day Koulibaly alone isn't why we as a whole underperformed, or why his departure from Napoli saw them win Serie A.  I've been disappointed in him myself after having established expectations based on knowing the player he's quite capable of being. However, and this applies to all our knew signings really, using this season as a barometer isn't necessarily the best marker to be using either. 

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4 hours ago, xceleryx said:

No, there's actually plenty of logic in my response. His teams record in the competition is irrelevant when all I said was that he had Champions League pedigree, which is more than either Twarkoski or Mee can lay claim towards. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The team is not in the CL next season, therefore his  alleged pedigree is irrelevant. His performances in the PL have been no better than the cloggers keep referring to.

KK is not fit for purpose for a PL campaign, therefore he's loaned, punted or becomes £38m bench warmer which was poor business and foresight by the club. 

53 minutes ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

he certainly has not been a failure.

What do you call him because he was certainly not a success for £38m and ~£250k per week

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32 minutes ago, ROTG said:

The team is not in the CL next season, therefore his  alleged pedigree is irrelevant. His performances in the PL have been no better than the cloggers keep referring to.

KK is not fit for purpose for a PL campaign, therefore he's loaned, punted or becomes £38m bench warmer which was poor business and foresight by the club. 

What do you call him because he was certainly not a success for £38m and ~£250k per week

He really isn't as bad as you're making out. 

He's had some poor games but all of them have. 

He appears to be unable to jump very high but most of the other things he's fallen short of can be put down to playing in a quicker league and will improve next season once he is, like the majority of our squad, fit. 

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17 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

He really isn't as bad as you're making out. 

He's had some poor games but all of them have. 

He appears to be unable to jump very high but most of the other things he's fallen short of can be put down to playing in a quicker league and will improve next season once he is, like the majority of our squad, fit. 

He may also need to stop making the sort of mistakes we'd all get the hump with a teenager with for doing twice though.  He gets caught out way more than any experienced CB should and gets booked for it far too often. 

If Colwill or Chalobah are doing the same thing next year, I doubt many will have much patience with them for it, so he really should be beyond that point by now. 

I do hope there is real improvement if he stays, but I can't help thinking we'd do well to take the money if an offer comes in for a player his age, on his wages, with his performance level. 

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1 hour ago, Bert19 said:

He may also need to stop making the sort of mistakes we'd all get the hump with a teenager with for doing twice though.  He gets caught out way more than any experienced CB should and gets booked for it far too often. 

If Colwill or Chalobah are doing the same thing next year, I doubt many will have much patience with them for it, so he really should be beyond that point by now. 

I do hope there is real improvement if he stays, but I can't help thinking we'd do well to take the money if an offer comes in for a player his age, on his wages, with his performance level. 

I agree but what I cannot understand is why had we as a club been hell bent on signing him for absolutely ages if he's error prone, makes daft mistakes and can't jump?  For us to try, try and try again to sign him there must've been something somebody saw surely? 

Sometimes as a centre half it comes down to partnerships with each half covering any weaknesses the other half has. 

Our centre halves have been chopped and changed like no-ones business this season, when he was politely asked to leave Potter didn't know his first team choices by then and Lampard has been inept since too. 

It's no wonder we look like a bunch of strangers thrown together. 

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12 hours ago, ROTG said:

The team is not in the CL next season, therefore his  alleged pedigree is irrelevant. His performances in the PL have been no better than the cloggers keep referring to.

KK is not fit for purpose for a PL campaign, therefore he's loaned, punted or becomes £38m bench warmer which was poor business and foresight by the club. 

Correct me if I'm wrong here but were we not competing in the Champions League going into this season?  Given we were discussing the notion of signing Koulibaly,  his CL experience was relevant in the summer when he was signed. 

No one has said he hasn't had a disappointing season domestically, but so have many others including several who've been here for numerous years.

You can spin whatever narrative you wish, move the goal posts at every moment you can, but at the end of the day when it's all said and done KK has historically been the far better defender than either of the former Burnley pairing you've pushed. Given our needs in the summer at the time, Koulibaly as a general solution wasn't a terrible move to make. You can of course argue the fee paid, wages handed out, or contract length, but each of those are subjective matters that every individual is going to have varied feelings about - none of which are right or wrong. 

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12 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

He appears to be unable to jump very high but most of the other things he's fallen short of can be put down to playing in a quicker league and will improve next season once he is, like the majority of our squad, fit. 

His biggest downside given his physical presence, he's pretty inept aerially. Always has been mind you, his strengths have always been at ground level. 

11 hours ago, Bert19 said:

He may also need to stop making the sort of mistakes we'd all get the hump with a teenager with for doing twice though.  He gets caught out way more than any experienced CB should and gets booked for it far too often. 

He's like David Luiz, wants to defend on the front foot and be aggressive. He has tapered that though as the season has gone on and he's grown more comfortable, early on though it was excessive and only exacerbated by being played in a completely unfamiliar LCB position in a three at the back. 

The nature of his role is quite different from what he had for 8 years or so at Napoli. On the plus side, his performances were looking better before he got injured and included a couple of stand out games. So it's not as if he's completely incapable, and I do think he'll be better next season should he remain. 

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5 hours ago, xceleryx said:

You can spin whatever narrative you wish, move the goal posts at every moment you can, but at the end of the day when it's all said and done KK has historically been the far better defender than either of the former Burnley pairing you've pushed. Given our needs in the summer at the time, Koulibaly as a general solution wasn't a terrible move to make.

No Spin from me just facts which you try and discredit with strawmen ideas.

For such an important signing in the summer because of the club's needs, why has he only started 20 PL games?

As for saying he has done better in his career than the two ex-Burnley cloggers, that is down to interpretation.  Tomori who in your opinion would never have reached the levels required to be consistent Chelsea first team player is doing quite well in the Italian league, in fact he has won more silverware than KK in Italy and got further in the CL. As for the two ex-Burnley cloggers they have consistently performed in the PL to a standard which KK has not reached and probably never will.

When you are trying to build a stable full of thoroughbreds it a bit p1sser when the owner buys you a carthorse.

6 hours ago, xceleryx said:

His biggest downside given his physical presence, he's pretty inept aerially. Always has been mind you, his strengths have always been at ground level. 

Like what? - His turning ability is akin to the turning of an oil tanker. 

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4 minutes ago, ROTG said:

No Spin from me just facts which you try and discredit with strawmen ideas.

For such an important signing in the summer because of the club's needs, why has he only started 20 PL games?

As for saying he has done better in his career than the two ex-Burnley cloggers, that is down to interpretation.  Tomori who in your opinion would never have reached the levels required to be consistent Chelsea first team player is doing quite well in the Italian league, in fact he has won more silverware than KK in Italy and got further in the CL. As for the two ex-Burnley cloggers they have consistently performed in the PL to a standard which KK has not reached and probably never will.

When you are trying to build a stable full of thoroughbreds it a bit p1sser when the owner buys you a carthorse.

You're the GOAT of moving the goal posts to suit yourself. 😄

Why has he only started 20 PL games? This hints as someone that's not watched a game all season, it's pretty self explanatory as to why - he's either been injured or on the bench when we've rotated. He's got the 5th most league minutes played - despite having missed the last 5 league games before his sub appearance vs Man City. 

It isn't down to interpretation at all that Koulibaly has had the better career. He's played 8 seasons for a side that finished 5th, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 5th and 3rd domestically, and played in the Champions League on several occasions. The two ex-Burnley lads played for a club that's been 19th, Championship, 16th, 7th, 15th, 10th, 17th and 18th in the same 8 year span. They're not even comparable in the slightest and the fact you're trying to spin it otherwise is wild, let alone the fact we're having this discussion at all.

Interesting you bring up Tomori though, because it highlights the gap in your resumé. Not that I'm wanting to drag the conversation away form the main point, but Tomori hasn't been good. The novelty has started to wear off a little as his performances haven't met the hype that's been surrounding him. Whether it's being criticised for his inability to lead a defensive line, his poor defensive awareness and positioning, or even just dwelling on the ball and sloppy execution in possession, the Milan fans haven't been as happy with him. One only has to look as far back as his last couple of games to have these factors highlighted.

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2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Interesting you bring up Tomori though, because it highlights the gap in your resumé. Not that I'm wanting to drag the conversation away form the main point, but Tomori hasn't been good

Tomori has a better CV of silverware in two tears than KK had in all his years at Napoli, which basically show KK level at Napoli "Bridesmaid", So far at Chelsea KK has struggled to get near bridesmaid level. Allas TT is destined never to be the Bride, but will have a bloody good pension thanks to TB

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2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

he's either been injured or on the bench when we've rotated.

injured for 5, sub 3, so there are 8  matches where he has played no part, not what you would expect of a top draw CB, especially with the teams form this season

2 hours ago, xceleryx said:

It isn't down to interpretation at all that Koulibaly has had the better career. He's played 8 seasons for a side that finished 5th, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 7th, 5th and 3rd domestically, and played in the Champions League on several occasions. The two ex-Burnley lads played for a club that's been 19th, Championship, 16th, 7th, 15th, 10th, 17th and 18th in the same 8 year span. They're not even comparable in the slightest and the fact you're trying to spin it otherwise is wild, let alone the fact we're having this discussion at all.

they are comparable when it come to the PL and performances by individuals, stop trying to hide behind his time in Italy

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2 hours ago, ROTG said:

they are comparable when it come to the PL and performances by individuals, stop trying to hide behind his time in Italy

Yeah! Stop using the majority of his body of work and judge his career based on about 9 months at a club that has been an absolute car crash from top to bottom like a reasonable person!

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1 hour ago, ROTG said:

Tomori has a better CV of silverware in two tears than KK had in all his years at Napoli, which basically show KK level at Napoli "Bridesmaid", So far at Chelsea KK has struggled to get near bridesmaid level. Allas TT is destined never to be the Bride, but will have a bloody good pension thanks to TB

Jesus Christ.

Next you're going to tell me Djimi Troare was better than Fabio Cannavaro because he won the Champions League.

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

injured for 5, sub 3, so there are 8  matches where he has played no part, not what you would expect of a top draw CB, especially with the teams form this season

20 starts and 3 sub appearances for a total of 23 games played.

4 times an unused sub - which you would've seen when looking up the information shared, but conveniently left out to suit your own narrative. 

And he was technically out longer than just 5 games injured.

He missed both the Man Utd and Brighton games under Potter with a knee injury (confirmed by Potter at the time before you try and spin it). He also missed the West Ham game after falling ill the night before, again confirmed by Potter at the time. So that's a total of 8 games out through sickness or injury. 

Then he missed the Leicester game early in the season through suspension after being sent off at Leeds. 

4+8+1= 13

13 + 23 =36

And that right there accounts for why he missed the games he did. Again, 5th most league minutes played this season. That's factual information you can't manipulate. 

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

they are comparable when it come to the PL and performances by individuals, stop trying to hide behind his time in Italy

You're the one trying to compare two blokes who've spent their careers at the lower end of the Premier League table to a guy that hadn't kicked a ball in England until this season. When we were signing Koulibaly in the summer, there was no comparison to be made. Not only that, but no one in their right mind other than you would've taken either Mee or Tarkowski over Koulibaly. His volume of work was, and still remains, far superior. One down season doesn't change that. 

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52 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Jesus Christ.

he's on loan until Christmas

 

53 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

One down season doesn't change that. 

Does if he is shown the door in the exit door in the summer

 

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

Mee or Tarkowski over Koulibaly. His volume of work was, and still remains, far superior.

We I have heard it all now - KK is a carthorse and been found wanting in the PL, not CL or any other of the competition  you try and make a strawman with, and is probably why never moved away from his comfort zone of Napoli. 

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On 23/05/2023 at 13:05, flllerywhereru2 said:

I think he has had some decent games, he certainly has not been a failure.

Some  damning with faint praise there.

Our players having some decent games is why we are now closer to the relegation teams than we are to City. The fact that there were others even worse than him only further underlines how far we have fallen.

 

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9 hours ago, ROTG said:

We I have heard it all now - KK is a carthorse and been found wanting in the PL, not CL or any other of the competition  you try and make a strawman with, and is probably why never moved away from his comfort zone of Napoli. 

Or more accurately ADL continuously priced him out of moves to the several clubs interested over the years, including ourselves, by slapping an f-off equivalent price tag on him. Just as he done with various other good players they've had over the years. 

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7 hours ago, xceleryx said:

slapping an f-off equivalent price tag on him. Just as he done with various other good players they've had over the years. 

Jorghino, Higuain, Cavani, come to mind of players Napoli kept. 

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9 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Jorghino, Higuain, Cavani, come to mind of players Napoli kept. 

Higuain -Juve had to pay the €90m release clause - the highest fee paid by an Italian side at the time, the most expensive South American at the time, and the biggest fee paid for a domestic transfer at the time. 
Joringho - We paid €57m to prize him away per request of Sarri (Man City were also interested).
Cavani - PSG paid €64.5m - a record fee in French football and the 5th highest transfer fee paid for a player in world football at the time. 

All three still currently reside in the top 5 most expensive sales in Napoli history. 

As I said before, ADL is notoriously known for not letting his best players go cheaply. Proof is in the pudding.

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