Everton 2 Chelsea 0

[ROTG]

On 12/12/2023 at 14:52, xceleryx said:

Pulisic and Loftus-Cheek (AC Milan) - Both went to an inferior league after both failed to establish themselves here beyond bit part roles despite years of opportunity. Look better against lower quality, as kinda expected. Neither are a miss or big needle movers. 

Both player their parts in beating Newcastle 1-2 last night and staying in Europe.  Not forgetting the other two Chelsea old boys playing for AC. 
 

Remind me of the result when the current Chelsea needle movers went to St James and is that a  reality check to you on the  current level of the Chelsea squad?

Edited December 14, 2023 by ROTG

[ROTG]

On 12/12/2023 at 14:52, xceleryx said:

Big successful clubs have also liked their share of mediocre and past it players as well. 

• Havertz (Arsenal) - An enigma to say the least. No real concrete position, no real standout attributes. An okay player on his day, when they roll around of course. No grand loss to us considering the money we got in return. 3 goals 1 assist in just under 1000 league minutes. 
• Mount (Man Utd) - Was poor for a good 6 months prior to being sold. Another with no real clear cut position, thinks he's an #8 but struggles outside of that hybrid attacking midfield winger role. Done the square root of nothing since leaving besides enjoying the treatment table. Good return for a player that was more interested in satisfying his old man.
• Kovacic (Man City) - Will be 30 in May, downed tools and lacked any fortitude last season when we needed him most. A good complimentary player, but does nothing overtly telling either. Had his injuries in recent years, and so far has been somewhere between a bit part and rotation player at City. Another that's contributed nothing production wise and struggled to fill Gundogan's boots. Reasonable fee received for a player who didn't want to be here and was soon to be out of contract.
• Pulisic and Loftus-Cheek (AC Milan) - Both went to an inferior league after both failed to establish themselves here beyond bit part roles despite years of opportunity. Look better against lower quality, as kinda expected. Neither are a miss or big needle movers. 
• Lukaku (Roma) - Didn't want to be here and made every effort to make that known. Not much else to discuss there, even if he'd have been useful. 
• Kepa (Madrid) - Most got their wish in seeing him leave, we also rid ourselves of his awful contract for a season. Would've preferred him to stay but again not a big needle mover either. Was never the solution as our long term first choice keeper, and unlikely here anyway once his contract ends.

Hard to say any of those are regrettable in the slightest at this point. 

With the exception of Mount all will be playing the KO stages of European football next season and all are in teams challenging for their respect leagues titles. 
 

I must agree with DWMH that none of them have taken a backward step in their careers. 

[Dwmh]

3 hours ago, ROTG said:

With the exception of Mount all will be playing the KO stages of European football next season and all are in teams challenging for their respect leagues titles. 
 

I must agree with DWMH that none of them have taken a backward step in their careers. 

And they were not pushed out, they ran like rats from a sinking ship.  (Self preservation is a honourable motive IMO).

[Max Fowler]

The blatantly obvious, clear as day problem is we got rid of all our experienced players all at once. We transitioned too quickly, and we still apparently don't care about getting experienced players in to replace them.

Eternal optimists like @xceleryx will say long-term this will help us more as we have done the hard yards clearing out expensive has-beens and can build from there.

The problem is, our squad is going nowhere because there is no leadership or know-how and too much pressure on our kids. Again, this is blatantly obvious. Even those like Caicedo with some PL experience are feeling the pressure.

When you look at all the names in isolation, many of the experienced players we let go seem to make sense. But we let go of them all at once, and to disagree with Droy a bit, we made it clear to them they weren't really wanted or could be sold for the right price.

Just compare us to Newcastle. They have had a slower transition and kept some experience in the side (and added to it) that have helped the new guys gel, same with Aston Villa. We have tried a different experiment that is completely failing.

[xceleryx]

4 hours ago, ROTG said:

With the exception of Mount all will be playing the KO stages of European football next season and all are in teams challenging for their respect leagues titles. 
 

I must agree with DWMH that none of them have taken a backward step in their careers. 

You or I could join Real Madrid tomorrow and be part of a successful side for years to come, that doesn't mean we're good players or are being a factor in that success. They'd be an excellent team either way, with or without us. That's much the same case for virtually all those in question that we've sold who've gone on to other top sides domestically or aboard. 

Kovacic is a squad player at present at Man City.

Havertz is playing regularly at Arsenal, but his influence and impact is no greater than it was here.

Mount's barely kicked a ball for Man Utd and was still struggling when he did.

Loftus-Cheek and Pulisic are having more impact than the others at AC Milan, but they've had to move to an inferior league where the standard is lower. AC Milan have also looked well off the pace domestically over the last month or so, with form that would have them mid-table.

So yeah, it's not as impressive as it appears on a surface level. 

[Dwmh]

49 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

You or I could join Real Madrid tomorrow and be part of a successful side for years to come, that doesn't mean we're good players or are being a factor in that success. They'd be an excellent team either way, with or without us. That's much the same case for virtually all those in question that we've sold who've gone on to other top sides domestically or aboard. 

 

That only works as an argument if you believe that Chelsea's scouting system is better than RM's.
If on the other hand you believe RM's continued success and Chelsea's recent failures is related to the clubs' ability to judge players, then  you are just plain wrong.

btw Kovacic started 98 PL games out of 190  in his 5 years at Chelsea. 7 starts out of 16 at City.  Not much difference.
Only 2 of the players you mention were first choice starters, and one is doing excellently at Arsenal. 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

Loftus-Cheek and Pulisic are having more impact than the others at AC Milan, but they've had to move to an inferior league where the standard is lower.

you are dodging the question.
If AC Milan are in a inferior league, what level are Chelsea at with AC Milan beating Newcastle who humped Chelsea 4-0 less than a month ago?

[jasonb]

Didn't Everton beat Newcastle 3-0 recently? 

Neither looks good on us though teams are blowing hot and cold.

I do think Newcastle have bought well yet would not be surprised if they go for a new manager next season. 

[Thiago97]

24 minutes ago, ROTG said:

you are dodging the question.
If AC Milan are in a inferior league, what level are Chelsea at with AC Milan beating Newcastle who humped Chelsea 4-0 less than a month ago?

Without wanting to butt in on your debate with Celery . You do realise collateral form  means absolutely nothing in football (I suspect you must realise this).

You could spend 5 minutes looking through any leagues set of fixture/results and find plenty of similar examples of the position you are taking here. It is a game over 90minutes that involves refereeing decisions that have an impact on what happens in any given scenario.

With all due respect, this is a ludicrous position to take.

[ROTG]

4 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Without wanting to butt in on your debate with Celery . You do realise collateral form  means absolutely nothing in football (I suspect you must realise this).

You could spend 5 minutes looking through any leagues set of fixture/results and find plenty of similar examples of the position you are taking here. It is a game over 90minutes that involves refereeing decisions that have an impact on what happens in any given scenario.

With all due respect, this is a ludicrous position to take.

You may well be right,

I am not trying to keep the debate going,  Newcastle’s inability to beat Milan over two matches gives the original statement a bit more substance.

[Sciatika]

I have always loved the phrase "with all due respect".

[Dwmh]

41 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

Without wanting to butt in on your debate with Celery . You do realise collateral form  means absolutely nothing in football (I suspect you must realise this).

You could spend 5 minutes looking through any leagues set of fixture/results and find plenty of similar examples of the position you are taking here. It is a game over 90minutes that involves refereeing decisions that have an impact on what happens in any given scenario.

With all due respect, this is a ludicrous position to take.

AC Milan being a whole lot better than Chelsea while regularly starting Tomori, RLC, Pulisic and Giroud is far from anecdotal.  The evidence is overwhelming.
Yet none of those 4 were regularly starters when they were at Chelsea.
Funny.

 

4 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

I have always loved the phrase "with all due respect".

I don't mean to be rude.

[Dwmh]

@Sciatika

I'm not being funny either.

[chara]

3 hours ago, Dwmh said:

btw Kovacic started 98 PL games out of 190  in his 5 years at Chelsea. 7 starts out of 16 at City.  Not much difference.
 

"With due respect"🌞...Droy you are pulling our p*ss*r on this point..as I'm sure you well know!

If KDB was available Kova would at best be on rotation/sub duty.

(oh and although with a smile I do mean the opening line!)

[Dwmh]

14 minutes ago, chara said:

"With due respect"🌞...Droy you are pulling our p*ss*r on this point..as I'm sure you well know!

If KDB was available Kova would at best be on rotation/sub duty.

(oh and although with a smile I do mean the opening line!)

Or Kante last season.  Kante has missed 81 games in the last 4 PL seasons, which is about the same number as Kovacic has played.  
For much of that time it has been Jorginho +1 in midfield.

The real question though is who else is on that rotation/sub duty with Kovacic.  Here it was RLC, Barkley, while Mount, Gallagher and Havertz were required in the front 3,  City have way better options.
I'm not a fan of Kovacic, but one has to say that starting 7 out of 16 games for Man City suggests they rate him more than starting approx 9/16 games in his time at Chelsea.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Dwmh

[chara]

3 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Or Kante last season.  Kante has missed 81 games in the last 4 PL seasons, which is about the same number as Kovacic has played.  
For much of that time it has been Jorginho +1 in midfield.

The real question though is who else is on that rotation/sub duty with Kovacic.  Here it was RLC, Barkley, while Mount, Gallagher and Havertz were required in the front 3,  City have way better options.
I'm not a fan of Kovacic, but one has to say that starting 7 out of 16 games for Man City suggests they rate him more than starting approx 9/16 games in his time at Chelsea.

Not to get too involved into a side interest debate/comment but Citeh..inmho...bought Kova to be part of their somewhat unheralded deep pool strategy...well paid,available, will do a job but not brought in to be a real first team challenger except as a "pusher" rather than a replacement if I have put it correctly.

As always enjoy your viewpoints Droy...only  aside comments on this subject from me...no interest in debating a past Chelsea player's present situation at length.

[Dwmh]

3 minutes ago, chara said:

Not to get too involved into a side interest debate/comment but Citeh..inmho...bought Kova to be part of their somewhat unheralded deep pool strategy...well paid,available, will do a job but not brought in to be a real first team challenger except as a "pusher" rather than a replacement if I have put it correctly.

 

But that has been his role for years at Chelsea.  Jorginho, Kante, and Kovacic as first sub.

[Max Fowler]

4 hours ago, xceleryx said:

You or I could join Real Madrid tomorrow and be part of a successful side for years to come, that doesn't mean we're good players or are being a factor in that success. They'd be an excellent team either way, with or without us. That's much the same case for virtually all those in question that we've sold who've gone on to other top sides domestically or aboard. 

Kovacic is a squad player at present at Man City.

Havertz is playing regularly at Arsenal, but his influence and impact is no greater than it was here.

Mount's barely kicked a ball for Man Utd and was still struggling when he did.

Loftus-Cheek and Pulisic are having more impact than the others at AC Milan, but they've had to move to an inferior league where the standard is lower. AC Milan have also looked well off the pace domestically over the last month or so, with form that would have them mid-table.

So yeah, it's not as impressive as it appears on a surface level. 

And to be fair - we are doing worse than every single one of them!

[kev61]

On 12/12/2023 at 06:48, ROTG said:

 

 

now is the time to back me or sack me at his Christmas Dinner with the owners 

That is a silly statement.There are wolves and lambs in managerial  positions.Poch is a lamb that is just glad he landed the job.

[kev61]

On 12/12/2023 at 08:55, ROTG said:

No 

Like him or loath him Lukaku has scored hatfuls of goals throughout his career. 
 

Jackson is a poor mans Adebayor 

Like him or loath him?.I would rather loath him.He is a jumped up clown that thinks he is better than he is..how many players can we reward without any sort of analysis?

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, kev61 said:

Like him or loath him?.I would rather loath him.He is a jumped up clown that thinks he is better than he is..

His goal record throughout his career says the opposite of the jumped up clown you are saying and knows where the onion bag is on a very regular basis. 

[ROTG]

4 hours ago, kev61 said:

That is a silly statement.There are wolves and lambs in managerial  positions.Poch is a lamb that is just glad he landed the job.

The buffoonery is people saying poch out. Give him a proper squad then his coaching ability can be truly assessed. 

[kev61]

10 minutes ago, ROTG said:

The buffoonery is people saying poch out. Give him a proper squad then his coaching ability can be truly assessed. 

He has been given a decent squad.Keep up chum.The reason we are failing is because he hasn't a clue what he is doing.

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

He has been given a decent squad.Keep up chum.The reason we are failing is because he hasn't a clue what he is doing.

He’s been given a squad on par with his Southampton days. If he gets 54pts he done as well as could be expected with the current squad.