Real Madrid 2 Chelsea 0

[xceleryx]

48 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

 There is no reason to expect that out of a midfield three of say Kante, Fernandez and Kovacic for example that one of them can't drop back and assist the defense when required. 

The issue with this is that it's more practical in theory than actually out on the pitch. It requires a high degree of tactical understanding from each of the midfielders or one, but also excellent communication between the midfield to make sure there's always someone dropping back. Should either of these aspects wane, the whole thing falls apart and you get the mess that we've often seen where everyone gets caught wrong side of the ball. 

Having a designated holder basically entails that job to one person, it's a clear and precise job where less can actually go wrong. None of this prevents the player from being involved within general play, but it does allow for one player to be constantly sat that little bit deeper putting them in a better position to cover, mop up, or cut plays out. 

[Mark Kelly]

57 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

The issue with this is that it's more practical in theory than actually out on the pitch. It requires a high degree of tactical understanding from each of the midfielders or one, but also excellent communication between the midfield to make sure there's always someone dropping back. Should either of these aspects wane, the whole thing falls apart and you get the mess that we've often seen where everyone gets caught wrong side of the ball. 

Having a designated holder basically entails that job to one person, it's a clear and precise job where less can actually go wrong. None of this prevents the player from being involved within general play, but it does allow for one player to be constantly sat that little bit deeper putting them in a better position to cover, mop up, or cut plays out. 

I suppose you could argue that if we have three centre halves then one could be designated to step into midfield to temporarily play as a holding midfielder ?

Probably too tactically advanced an idea for our lot but ....

[xceleryx]

15 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I suppose you could argue that if we have three centre halves then one could be designated to step into midfield to temporarily play as a holding midfielder ?

Probably too tactically advanced an idea for our lot but ....

We've actually already seen this happen on a fairly frequent basis whenever we've played a back three this season. When people complain about why Cucurella plays, this is generally why he does. He's capable of stepping up into midfield and kind of tucking inside, big part of why his positioning is generally quite different to that of the RCB. In part it's also partly why Koulibaly struggled at LCB early on, and why Badiashile has been overlooked more recently, neither are as capable of doing this. 

This is why I've not hung him out to dry as quickly as some others have re his positioning, because a big part of why he's sometimes caught out is due to filling that sort of faux midfield role while the likes of Kova, Enzo or whoever else is in there pushes up. It also allows Chilwell to play so high and make those runs in behind, knowing he doesn't necessarily need to get back immediately.

[Bones]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

We've actually already seen this happen on a fairly frequent basis whenever we've played a back three this season. When people complain about why Cucurella plays, this is generally why he does. He's capable of stepping up into midfield and kind of tucking inside, big part of why his positioning is generally quite different to that of the RCB. In part it's also partly why Koulibaly struggled at LCB early on, and why Badiashile has been overlooked more recently, neither are as capable of doing this. 

This is why I've not hung him out to dry as quickly as some others have re his positioning, because a big part of why he's sometimes caught out is due to filling that sort of faux midfield role while the likes of Kova, Enzo or whoever else is in there pushes up. It also allows Chilwell to play so high and make those runs in behind, knowing he doesn't necessarily need to get back immediately.

Rüdiger used to do that very very well

[Liquidator]

If we get hammered next round i will be immediately cancelling my BT sport subscription .....Every cloud and all that .....

[Holymoly]

"Frank Lampard has spoken about his admiration for Raheem Sterling"

From the official club website. We're doomed.

[Mark Kelly]

9 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

"Frank Lampard has spoken about his admiration for Raheem Sterling"

From the official club website. We're doomed.

Says he thinks he's one of the best wingers in the world and some say the best. 

I expect those who think he's the best winger in the world are in Broadmoor. 

 

[chiswickblue]

7 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I suppose you could argue that if we have three centre halves then one could be designated to step into midfield to temporarily play as a holding midfielder ?

Probably too tactically advanced an idea for our lot but ....

Do you think it's too late to give Chalobah a go there? Could save us a lot of money if he's up to the job, and would immediately allow us to get more out of Enzo, Kanté and Mount in a midfield 3. Plus it would allow our wingers to get  a game. Doesn't solve the central goalscoring issue, but 343 hasn't done that either.

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, chiswickblue said:

Do you think it's too late to give Chalobah a go there? Could save us a lot of money if he's up to the job, and would immediately allow us to get more out of Enzo, Kanté and Mount in a midfield 3. Plus it would allow our wingers to get  a game. Doesn't solve the central goalscoring issue, but 343 hasn't done that either.

I think we shouldn't be going into the tail end of the season and fourth coach without having at least tried him there. 

I must say it does make you question the qualities of the people we're employing when these basic questions are being asked by us and seemingly not by anyone in the club. 

[Blue Orca]

18 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Not having a genuine holding player in midfield renders virtually any back four system as pointless right now, it just leaves us far too vulnerable through the middle of the pitch. A back three helps mask that a little because the extra CB is able to step up into some of midfield spaces, plus it maximises both Chilwell and James our best two attacking outputs. 

If they played Kante where he was the first season and how he played for Leicester then that would suffice, but managers started to let him move further forward and the gaps started to appear without any major benefit to the attack. As long as he is fit make him sit. 😀

[Blue Orca]

5 hours ago, Liquidator said:

If we get hammered next round i will be immediately cancelling my BT sport subscription .....Every cloud and all that .....

Me too, plus the coverage isn't what it used to be. 

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, Blue Orca said:

If they played Kante where he was the first season and how he played for Leicester then that would suffice, but managers started to let him move further forward and the gaps started to appear without any major benefit to the attack. As long as he is fit make him sit. 😀

With pressing being a bigger factor his role has evolved with that, especially with his ball winning abilities being at the forefront. Even then, Kante still had Drinkwater behind him at Leicester and then Matic early days here. Both of those players would sit and cover, which allowed Kante to still have the freedom to roam about the pitch. Of course, Kante being younger also meant he had this unique gift of being able to get back and recover more frequently covering a lot of group in the process, something that's been lost a little more between injuries and age. 

As for the "as long as he is fit make him sit" part, we all know that's just not something Kante is capable of doing. He was awful at doing so under Conte, and it completely goes against everything that makes him the player he's been. It's also why Kante, as good as he's been and may still be, is a bit of a problem for us at the same time. 

[kev61]

18 hours ago, bertles86 said:

Rodri
Palhinha
Casemiro
Tchouameni
Kimmich
Rice

I've only heard of two of them(my fault not yours).Imagine Brian Clough or Ferguson talking about a holding midfield player?

Is that a sweeper in old money?.

Maybe that is wrong with the modern game..too many insructions!.I would put money on if a manager gets too technical the average player would just switch off.

I rarely agree with Roy Keane,but in an interview recently he said if a player can't understand simple instructions and has to be told several times what to do he should be got rid of. 

We throw huge contracts at players without due diligence and expect them to perform right away.

 

[kev61]

7 hours ago, Holymoly said:

"Frank Lampard has spoken about his admiration for Raheem Sterling"

From the official club website. We're doomed.

Obviously an attempt to boost his confidence, because he has been absolute shite recently.

[Michael Tucker]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

Imagine Brian Clough or Ferguson talking about a holding midfield player?

Different times, and different needs.

[Michael Tucker]

48 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Obviously an attempt to boost his confidence, because he has been absolute shite recently.

Yes, he has.  Hopefully, Frank can get something more out if him.

[kev61]

16 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I suppose you could argue that if we have three centre halves then one could be designated to step into midfield to temporarily play as a holding midfielder ?

Probably too tactically advanced an idea for our lot but ....

You could also have a natural midfielder like Kante that can adapt.

[kev61]

20 hours ago, Holymoly said:

. Holding midfield is just a role that one of the midfielders should fill when the situation demands and there is no reason to allocate that to a specific player as if that were the case then the team becomes easy to play against as you will always know where a particular player is going to be. There is no reason to expect that out of a midfield three of say Kante, Fernandez and Kovacic for example that one of them can't drop back and assist the defense when required. If you allocate that to a specific player then you run the risk of being overrun if they find themselves out of position when required. All you need to do is make sure that professional footballers can 

Nailed it.

[xceleryx]

1 hour ago, kev61 said:

I've only heard of two of them(my fault not yours).Imagine Brian Clough or Ferguson talking about a holding midfield player?

Is that a sweeper in old money?.

Ferguson utilised holding midfielders in the early 2000's, at one point he was playing two with Roy Keane and Phil Neville (Phil used to help cover Keanes lack of pace at that stage of his career). Then later one it ended up being Carrick who held that role for years where his passing range providing more creativity from deep, but we also saw Fletcher and even Alan Smith end up in the role at various times also. 

It is not a sweeper, no. A sweeper was typically a central defender that effectively played behind a CB pairing, they'd cover and mop up through balls etc.

[kev61]

9 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Ferguson utilised holding midfielders in the early 2000's, at one point he was playing two with Roy Keane and Phil Neville (Phil used to help cover Keanes lack of pace at that stage of his career). Then later one it ended up being Carrick who held that role for years where his passing range providing more creativity from deep, but we also saw Fletcher and even Alan Smith end up in the role at various times also. 

It is not a sweeper, no. A sweeper was typically a central defender that effectively played behind a CB pairing, they'd cover and mop up through balls etc.

Wow! you have a photographic  memory.I can't disagree,but I would question whether Ferguson was that  technical.

 

[kev61]

14 hours ago, Bones said:

Rüdiger used to do that very very well

That's because Rudiger acted on his own,seeing how weak the midfield was, he tried to help out as an impulsive reaction to a weak midfield.

Nothing to do with any managerial involvement.

[Mark Kelly]

9 hours ago, Blue Orca said:

If they played Kante where he was the first season and how he played for Leicester then that would suffice, but managers started to let him move further forward and the gaps started to appear without any major benefit to the attack. As long as he is fit make him sit. 😀

Danny Drinkwater did the Sitting at Leicester 

[chrisb]

6 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Danny Drinkwater did the Sitting at Leicester 

He also did a lot of sitting at Chelsea, mainly in the stands!

[Mark Kelly]

54 minutes ago, chrisb said:

He also did a lot of sitting at Chelsea, mainly in the stands!

And he was badly treated in my opinion , another panic buy when we sold Matic to United against Conte's wishes and he went crazy at the board.

[CarefreeMuratcan]

I'm going to go positive with this game.

Out of all the rubbish we have been playing in 2023, the Dortmund games were the exception.

Maybe it really is the case that we are so far behind in the league, the players can't be bothered.

Whereas the CL has a tangible carrot dangling right there and they all raise their game accordingly to the occasion.