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I would say 90%+ of the fan base now want the current man gone.

I've been caught up in debates all season on this subject, from very early on when I called Pochettino to go to debating the merits of De Zerbi. Thing is apparently I'm a 'De Zerbi fan boy' and a 'De Zerbi hipster' and even though I watch all their games I don't pay attention or maybe it's because I dont have a basic understanding of football and just don't get it.

Is Roberto De Zerbi my first choice? Absolutely not. Of all the available managers that would be Jurgen Klopp, but that's just not happening. 

Second choice would be Tuchel.

Third Jose.

Realistically though neither of those are happening for different reasons hence why I think we should go for De Zerbi.

I'm curious who others would want. I think a lot, most would put Tuchel or Jose but if we assume neither of those are possible, who would people like to see here next season?

 

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All of those managers would flounder over the medium and longer term. When the foundations of what Chels have so arrogantly been changed to are so wrong the manager is irrelevant. 

By all means folks want to go for the myopic, blame cycle quick win but when we have fans blaming the manager on the abject mistake that is Mudryk we are well and truly in denial as to the huge, future defining mistakes being made by the owners and their cronies. Doesn't mean out current steer hasn't done some stupid things, that he took ain't all that good, that his niceness (from the Klopp playbook of how to make your abilities look way beyond that of reality) doesn't mean he shouldn't go but I fail to see how any manager will not be impacted detrimentally away from their core knowledge and knowledge how by the utter mess of our signings and 'philosophy'.

 

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1 hour ago, patThenevin said:

All of those managers would flounder over the medium and longer term. When the foundations of what Chels have so arrogantly been changed to are so wrong the manager is irrelevant. 

By all means folks want to go for the myopic, blame cycle quick win but when we have fans blaming the manager on the abject mistake that is Mudryk we are well and truly in denial as to the huge, future defining mistakes being made by the owners and their cronies. Doesn't mean out current steer hasn't done some stupid things, that he took ain't all that good, that his niceness (from the Klopp playbook of how to make your abilities look way beyond that of reality) doesn't mean he shouldn't go but I fail to see how any manager will not be impacted detrimentally away from their core knowledge and knowledge how by the utter mess of our signings and 'philosophy'.

 

All true, but still no justification in retaining such an ineffective, unsophisticated manager. In order to maximise the effectiveness of the new guy there would need to be fundamental changes to policy as you say, but if a blind man breaks his leg you still need to reset the leg even if you can't restore his sight ! Absence of proper vision may be the main problem, but an inability to walk is the pressing issue.

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Re-Tuchel. Two things.

1) Apparently sacked because he wasn't prepared to be collaborative enough. At the time, we had no DOF or clear recruitment infrastructure going forwards, so, as we were led to believe, he had been dealing directly with the owners, for that summer window anyway. Now we do have that infrastructure in place, regardless of what one or two might think of it, they are at least football people with experience in football recruitment. That would be a much easier sell to TT now.  As would the fact that we are utter **** and it would be relatively easy to improve us - some decent tactics, three or 4 key 1st 11 players back from injury, a couple of carefully curated additions.

2) There is the Simon Jordan factor. He often implies that "something else" went on, justifying the sacking. Dont know what to make of that.

3) Obviously, if he wins the CL again, he will end up going somewhere better than here...

 

That's 3 things.

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2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

I would say 90%+ of the fan base now want the current man gone.

I've been caught up in debates all season on this subject, from very early on when I called Pochettino to go to debating the merits of De Zerbi. Thing is apparently I'm a 'De Zerbi fan boy' and a 'De Zerbi hipster' and even though I watch all their games I don't pay attention or maybe it's because I dont have a basic understanding of football and just don't get it.

Is Roberto De Zerbi my first choice? Absolutely not. Of all the available managers that would be Jurgen Klopp, but that's just not happening. 

Second choice would be Tuchel.

Third Jose.

Realistically though neither of those are happening for different reasons hence why I think we should go for De Zerbi.

I'm curious who others would want. I think a lot, most would put Tuchel or Jose but if we assume neither of those are possible, who would people like to see here next season?

 

Tough to answer this unless one is immersed in the details of managerial performance across all the major European leagues. What I do think is that the due diligence needs to be raised (or should that be reduced) to a forensic level. An exhaustively investigative process needs to replace whatever facile, one dimensional, allegedly data-led approach is currently favoured by the decision makers at the club: management is a mixture of hard and soft skills and a proper judgement of both is vital.

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No way is it +90%. That's not to say it couldn't be by the end of the season, but not right now.

Tuchel hugely unlikely. If you believe Simon Johnson, who clearly has some ear within the club, then the current owners apparently wish they had sacked him sooner and Tuchel hated working under this regime. I just can't see how TT is an option. Poch used to get slated for not winning Ligue 1 in his first year there, I would say TT not winning Bundesliga is pretty similar barometer, for those who use that barometer.

Jose is just a big NO with this squad of players. It would collapse within itself after 12-18 months.

If we are looking for a new manager in the summer, we need someone who is respected as an inspirational leader. Someone who has been there and done it as a player, also with the benefits of playing within  the current era, and who can identify with our current players, and also be relatable to our current players.

A modern and articulate coach, who plays progressive football and is fearless in his philosophy, but knows what it takes in terms of mentality and professionalism a to be an elite level player, and can set the standards required to achieve this for our young squad.

Step forward Vincent Kompany.........took over a relegated team who had been under the same direct and pragmatic manager for the best part of a decade. He ripped up the whole  playing style/structure of the club and turned them into comfortable champions with a young team within his first season. He has not had millions to spend in the PL and has a squad limited on PL level players and experience, yet they have identified young hungry players who have improved throughout the season. They may get relegated, but that's down to how they performed in the first half of the season.  Kompany and his players have grown over the season , started to improve and get to grips with the league, though it looks like that will come too late to save them.

If we are going down the road of a change. Then Kompany is the man who appeals most to me. An iconic PL player during his time at City, he was their JT and leader, and he has started his managerial career off in a really positive manner. City don't need him, Utd couldn't really appoint him, LIverpool have gone another route. We need a strong generational leader, and I am sure he would jump at the chance to come here.

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3 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

No way is it +90%. That's not to say it couldn't be by the end of the season, but not right now.

Tuchel hugely unlikely. If you believe Simon Johnson, who clearly has some ear within the club, then the current owners apparently wish they had sacked him sooner and Tuchel hated working under this regime. I just can't see how TT is an option. Poch used to get slated for not winning Ligue 1 in his first year there, I would say TT not winning Bundesliga is pretty similar barometer, for those who use that barometer.

Jose is just a big NO with this squad of players. It would collapse within itself after 12-18 months.

If we are looking for a new manager in the summer, we need someone who is respected as an inspirational leader. Someone who has been there and done it as a player, also with the benefits of playing within  the current era, and who can identify with our current players, and also be relatable to our current players.

A modern and articulate coach, who plays progressive football and is fearless in his philosophy, but knows what it takes in terms of mentality and professionalism a to be an elite level player, and can set the standards required to achieve this for our young squad.

Step forward Vincent Kompany.........took over a relegated team who had been under the same direct and pragmatic manager for the best part of a decade. He ripped up the whole  playing style/structure of the club and turned them into comfortable champions with a young team within his first season. He has not had millions to spend in the PL and has a squad limited on PL level players and experience, yet they have identified young hungry players who have improved throughout the season. They may get relegated, but that's down to how they performed in the first half of the season.  Kompany and his players have grown over the season , started to improve and get to grips with the league, though it looks like that will come too late to save them.

If we are going down the road of a change. Then Kompany is the man who appeals most to me. An iconic PL player during his time at City, he was their JT and leader, and he has started his managerial career off in a really positive manner. City don't need him, Utd couldn't really appoint him, LIverpool have gone another route. We need a strong generational leader, and I am sure he would jump at the chance to come here.

I understand the logic and what you’ve set out does make a lot of sense, however, I would want to see him have another season in the PL, ideally with Burnley, to see whether what you’re suggesting does actually come to fruition and whether they genuinely do improve or not.

I don’t have any other names to really put forward at the moment, I think we’re in a sticky place in terms of who we could realistically get in. It’s also all a big IF at the moment as well, as Poch may not even go.

The other key question is, what do we want the new manager to come in and do? That for me dictates who we look for. Do we want someone to get us back into the CL for the season after next? Do we want someone to improve the current players under a limited budget and get top 6? 

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@My Blood Is Blue...local area off line since yesterday mid day'ish so a bit "need my morning fix"...what do we want etc?

Me...I want a coach who is able to take the squad as it will be at the start of next season...to the level of it's attainable success...if it is a top four squad..that's what I want to see,,,if it is a 5-8 squad that is what I want to see accomplished...and on a consistent basis not by default...leading to and showing aa positive progressive way forward however slowly but apparent.

And I want to be able to smile after games..on my own and with all here...laugh at the likes of Kalou and Kezman with affection not malice...accept the good fortune and bounces and the "injustices" of the game with equal fortitude...feel I am watching My Chelsea not some IT produced look alike cut outs wearing the right colours and a bland not bad but not good coach...too much to ask for?

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30 minutes ago, chara said:

@My Blood Is Blue...local area off line since yesterday mid day'ish so a bit "need my morning fix"...what do we want etc?

Me...I want a coach who is able to take the squad as it will be at the start of next season...to the level of it's attainable success...if it is a top four squad..that's what I want to see,,,if it is a 5-8 squad that is what I want to see accomplished...and on a consistent basis not by default...leading to and showing aa positive progressive way forward however slowly but apparent.

And I want to be able to smile after games..on my own and with all here...laugh at the likes of Kalou and Kezman with affection not malice...accept the good fortune and bounces and the "injustices" of the game with equal fortitude...feel I am watching My Chelsea not some IT produced look alike cut outs wearing the right colours and a bland not bad but not good coach...too much to ask for?

Before I get stuck into your post, I must stress that I think you're one of the nicest, most reasonable posters on here, but imho, this post typifies the unfairness on here towards the current manager.

 

Any manager should be sacked when he is not doing a good enough job. Fair enough. But if that manager only gets one year,  then isnt only fair for the next to get the one year as well? 

Then you go onto talk about the squad being top four or top 5-8. Covering a lot of basis there without saying what you think the quality of this squad is. We are currently 9th with a hand in hand and could easily finish in that 5-8 bracket, but if we did we should still sack the manager but keep the next one if he did the same.  Is this a top four squad right now? Is it a top 5-8 right now? 

What about domestic cups, which we haven't won one for 6 years. To better the current manager he'd need to win a cup or get to two finals. Sack the next one if he doesn't get too 4 or win a cup?;

All this achieved with two shit keepers who've cost dear. Individual brain farts that have cost us dear  An injury crisis of the like we've never seen resulting in us never being able to play a settled,  first choice back four.  No  quality CF.

I won't bother listing the undeniable facts of the progress being shown as that's been done to death but always discarded.

 

2 options here.

Play safe and sensible and see how Poch can do with a fit squad. Bit more experience. A settled defence. We'll be challenging for top four if those three happen!

Or get rid and start all over again with yet another new manager who'll probably want to play a different style of football. If it's a pragmatic, defensive one, then we can kiss good bye to seeing Palmer flourish. Time wasted with the new manager having to get to know the players, who'll fit his system etc. 

Imho, if we get a new manager, unless we are extremely lucky,  it's highly more likely we'll at best tread water next season and then watch the calls for another sacking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I understand the logic and what you’ve set out does make a lot of sense, however, I would want to see him have another season in the PL, ideally with Burnley, to see whether what you’re suggesting does actually come to fruition and whether they genuinely do improve or not.

I don’t have any other names to really put forward at the moment, I think we’re in a sticky place in terms of who we could realistically get in. It’s also all a big IF at the moment as well, as Poch may not even go.

The other key question is, what do we want the new manager to come in and do? That for me dictates who we look for. Do we want someone to get us back into the CL for the season after next? Do we want someone to improve the current players under a limited budget and get top 6? 

Yeah I think that is a fair position to take on Kompany.

In terms of what we want the manager to do. I actually think this is quite simple, if we go out and sign 3-4 experienced quality players through the spine of the team. Then I want the manager to produce a serious top 4 challenge. I don't believe that is unrealistic, when you factor in the improvement of the players we already have.

I'm in the minority on here, but I think Poch has done enough to be given the opening shot at achieving this. If he got those players in, I think we would know within the first 10-12 games if Poch is up to that challenge. If he isn't , we move him on and look for someone else to take the challenge on. I don't necessarily think the season is a write off, if we act early enough, should we need to.

I'm convinced a peak Azpilicueta, Rudiger, Matic (just 3 examples of solid quality professionals who lead) in our team for 30 games this season, we have an additional 9-13pts. That puts us in the mix for top4 with 5 games to play. Find three current equivalents of these players, with one of them being a number 9........no excuses for any decent manager not to be pushing for top4 right until end of the season.

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@boratsbrother...as ever..differences of views are what makes this forum interesting ...In a mild defence I really was trying to say that what ever the immediate attainable level as apparent at any time is what I expect any coach to achieve....not aimed at The Poch so much as any coach...that I happen to think The Poch will never be better (or worse) is just my humble opinion.

The keeper issues I stay away from these days...but if Cole had scored the second Villa goal NO ONE would have been talking about a keeper error.

I appreciate my post being read and commented on...

 

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3 hours ago, chara said:

@boratsbrother...as ever..differences of views are what makes this forum interesting ...In a mild defence I really was trying to say that what ever the immediate attainable level as apparent at any time is what I expect any coach to achieve....not aimed at The Poch so much as any coach...that I happen to think The Poch will never be better (or worse) is just my humble opinion.

The keeper issues I stay away from these days...but if Cole had scored the second Villa goal NO ONE would have been talking about a keeper error.

I appreciate my post being read and commented on...

 

Chara, the Thiago Silva of cfcnet!

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The managerial market is pretty dire overall, with the more promising and exciting options likely to either stay at their respective clubs or head to more established sides who are likely looking to compete, something we're not quite ready to do yet.

We've seen Barcelona apparently try and convince Xavi to remain for another season because of the market, wouldn't be surprised if this is to try and secure Klopp after he's had a year off to refresh.. While Xabi Alonso staying has put a bit of a handbrake on a few other potential moves that may have subsequently followed if he had joined Liverpool. 

The two most attractive mainstream options right now include De Zerbi and Ruben Amorim, both of which are no certainties to leave and come with their own question marks. Although, I'd probably put Inzaghi and Thiago Motta in this bracket myself but the former is unlikely to leave Inter at present, and the latter is being tipped to replace Allegri at Juve. 

Otherwise you're looking at holder heads like Tuchel, Mourinho and Conte (linked to Napoli at present) - managers we've already chewed up and spat out. Who aren't necessarily ideal for the current day position we're in either.

As much as some may want to see Poch shot from a cannon and into the sun come the summer, because of a lack of real stand out replacements to step in I'd not be surprised if he see's out the remaining year of his contract, with a focus being put on recruitment to address our inexperience and areas of need instead.

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Coaches/managers and keepers across the board but specifically in the EPL..... apart from two coaches and two keepers the standard is pretty average and not much,if anything. to be gained from bringing in a coach or keeper from that pool. 

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Although I have been his most vocal critic , even I can see the merit in not rocking the boat too much with the paucity of options available to us in the coach / manager market .

My issue with Pochettino has always been his lack of tangible coaching , when he arrived I was hoping he'd put a bit of steel in the side , a bit of nastiness and have us organised but so far all I can really see is that the players do appear to be playing for him to some degree and that they do keep going with the hope of turning things around more often than not .

I'm not happy with his chaos approach as I believe that young players especially and even more especially in these days , need structure and guidance to get the best out of them whereas ours rarely seem to know exactly what is going on around them and everything is done on an ad hoc basis which is why a maverick like Cole Palmer is shining and an immature Mudryk is not.

I suppose , as much as it sticks in my craw the sensible thing would be to do what many have suggested we do and get in some more seasoned pros to influence the kids and hope that we get some decent service out of Reece James , Enzo , Lavia going forwards , but something has to change somewhere , when he got the job there was a lot of talk of how Pochettino works and that was that generally they had a terrible first season where everyone got to know each other , the second was an improvement as all were familiar with his methods and the third was where we would really kick on . I would suggest if I were Pochettino I'd be looking to bypass the second and jump straight into the third .

I still firmly believe we are growing a team here with quality young erratic players who individually are far better than what we are seeing from them , Pochettino has to start getting them to play , I simply cannot understand what he expects to achieve with no structure , no patterns of play , disjointedness between defence and attack and the inability to perform with any degree of competence attacking or defending set pieces , it boggles my mind.

But , they do appear to like him which counts for something

The thought of having to pay Brighton for De Zerbi fills me with misery , not because I think De Zerbi wouldn't do a good job but because I don't want to give those tossers any more of our money . 

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24 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Although I have been his most vocal critic , even I can see the merit in not rocking the boat too much with the paucity of options available to us in the coach / manager market .

My issue with Pochettino has always been his lack of tangible coaching , when he arrived I was hoping he'd put a bit of steel in the side , a bit of nastiness and have us organised but so far all I can really see is that the players do appear to be playing for him to some degree and that they do keep going with the hope of turning things around more often than not .

I'm not happy with his chaos approach as I believe that young players especially and even more especially in these days , need structure and guidance to get the best out of them whereas ours rarely seem to know exactly what is going on around them and everything is done on an ad hoc basis which is why a maverick like Cole Palmer is shining and an immature Mudryk is not.

I suppose , as much as it sticks in my craw the sensible thing would be to do what many have suggested we do and get in some more seasoned pros to influence the kids and hope that we get some decent service out of Reece James , Enzo , Lavia going forwards , but something has to change somewhere , when he got the job there was a lot of talk of how Pochettino works and that was that generally they had a terrible first season where everyone got to know each other , the second was an improvement as all were familiar with his methods and the third was where we would really kick on . I would suggest if I were Pochettino I'd be looking to bypass the second and jump straight into the third .

I still firmly believe we are growing a team here with quality young erratic players who individually are far better than what we are seeing from them , Pochettino has to start getting them to play , I simply cannot understand what he expects to achieve with no structure , no patterns of play , disjointedness between defence and attack and the inability to perform with any degree of competence attacking or defending set pieces , it boggles my mind.

But , they do appear to like him which counts for something

The thought of having to pay Brighton for De Zerbi fills me with misery , not because I think De Zerbi wouldn't do a good job but because I don't want to give those tossers any more of our money . 

So you want him to stay now, Mr K? 👀😬🙈

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Just now, Chelsea_Matt said:

So you want him to stay now, Mr K? 👀😬🙈

Not really , I just don't want any more misery when Clownlake go for Southgate or Moyes , I'm hoping they're going to get Klopp after he's recharged his batteries for a while 

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41 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Although I have been his most vocal critic , even I can see the merit in not rocking the boat too much with the paucity of options available to us in the coach / manager market .

My issue with Pochettino has always been his lack of tangible coaching , when he arrived I was hoping he'd put a bit of steel in the side , a bit of nastiness and have us organised but so far all I can really see is that the players do appear to be playing for him to some degree and that they do keep going with the hope of turning things around more often than not .

I'm not happy with his chaos approach as I believe that young players especially and even more especially in these days , need structure and guidance to get the best out of them whereas ours rarely seem to know exactly what is going on around them and everything is done on an ad hoc basis which is why a maverick like Cole Palmer is shining and an immature Mudryk is not.

I suppose , as much as it sticks in my craw the sensible thing would be to do what many have suggested we do and get in some more seasoned pros to influence the kids and hope that we get some decent service out of Reece James , Enzo , Lavia going forwards , but something has to change somewhere , when he got the job there was a lot of talk of how Pochettino works and that was that generally they had a terrible first season where everyone got to know each other , the second was an improvement as all were familiar with his methods and the third was where we would really kick on . I would suggest if I were Pochettino I'd be looking to bypass the second and jump straight into the third .

I still firmly believe we are growing a team here with quality young erratic players who individually are far better than what we are seeing from them , Pochettino has to start getting them to play , I simply cannot understand what he expects to achieve with no structure , no patterns of play , disjointedness between defence and attack and the inability to perform with any degree of competence attacking or defending set pieces , it boggles my mind.

But , they do appear to like him which counts for something

The thought of having to pay Brighton for De Zerbi fills me with misery , not because I think De Zerbi wouldn't do a good job but because I don't want to give those tossers any more of our money . 

I imagine this is how a red wall northerner justified voting Tory to themselves during an election running parallel with Brexit 😊

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At the start of the season, I decided to give Poch a whole season and then see how we are. I'll stick to that.  I was a little encouraged at Villa seeing him increasingly animated on the touchline and coaching the players during the course of the game. We came out better in the second half than the first, which was novel. Still no quick start, though. I am not convinced by his use of Cucurella as an auxiliary midfielder, but at least I could see what he was trying to do. I'd like to say his subs worked, but he only brought on Casadei for Mudryk, along with Disasi for the injured Thiago in the 90th.  But apart from that, he only had U21s (Daevid Washington, Alfie Gilchrist, Josh Acheampong, Tyrique George, and Kiano Dyer) and a couple of spare GKs. We had more stupid bookings at the end. He really needs to get control of that.

Also, I wonder if the manager is the most important problem we have, though that does not rule out parting ways. Looking at the table, I noticed that there seemed to be two kinds of defences. Man City, Arsenal and Liverpool have conceded around 30 goals and the rest with fifty or more. I suppose we are not the worst, but I think that's a worry. It's a clear indication that if we want to do better, we need to tighten up a lot more.  Thiago leaving won't help.  Put another way, it's a very weak league. If we can sort out the defence, the squad is probably a top-six one. BSA might be available for a short-term position 😦. If we could do that and add a more reliable goalscorer, we might get into the top four. Is Nkunku the man? It's impossible to know, he had barely been fit. However, Man Utd and the Geordies will be stronger next year. I suspect all this is true with or without Poch. My real worry is that the owners will replace Poch with a fashionable manager with a limited track record outside (or within) the PL. Worse, someone the MOTD pundits think has performed well. I think that's a mistake. 

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17 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I imagine this is how a red wall northerner justified voting Tory to themselves during an election running parallel with Brexit 😊

The truth is I don't want him but I don't trust them to replace him either !

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3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

The truth is I don't want him but I don't trust them to replace him either !

There are immediate improvements that can be made by changing him for someone who has structure and discipline at the heart of their beliefs. 

IF this is a longer term plan (IF repeated for emphasis), then once the structure and discipline is installed then you go from there. We have neither and we’re properly ‘Gumped’ currently - namely “life’s like a box of chocolates, you don’t know which one you’ve got, till you bite into it”. And that’s like the team. Excellence is built on consistency and solid bases/structures - And that’s why not only changing the coach is needed.

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I really doubt it is even close to 90% of the fanbase who actively want Pochettino gone. 

I'll just be repeating what I've already said, but when you lay out the qualities/characteristics of what we need in a new coach/manager, it's pretty much impossible to see who it could be.

- They have to be very cheap to get, ideally not already employed but if they are, by someone who isn't going to demand a huge compensation fee. Our books are too stretched to be spending £20m on someone.

- They have to accept that they are just the coach and will have a limited say in recruitment, and that there are certain players at the club who it has already been decided are being sold.

- They need to be someone who can strike the right balance between putting an arm around the shoulder of young players while also being hard enough on them for us to be well drilled. They can't be calling Mudryk useless in press conferences, no matter how true it is.

- They have to actually be good ...

- But not so obviously good that they can get a better offer elsewhere. 

- These owners have to feel confident they won't rock the boat by managing upwards, they need to be  ... ugh, "collaborative".

I'm not confident this person exists, and I'm pretty confident it is none of the people named so far in this thread. I think the most likely consequence of moving Pochettino on is that we get someone in the same ilk in and basically nothing changes.

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