Chelsea 0 Nottingham Forest 1

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

I don't believe that XceleryX is in charge of our purchasing policy , I may be wrong though. 

No he is not,

IMO he's getting a few backhanders form Winstanley, Stewart & Shields for his continued support of their recruitment  policy on this forum. 🤫

@xceleryx Only Joking 😀

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Gurj SS said:

But these guys didn't play much, they very quickly fell down the pecking order and a lack of game time made things even worse, not saying they'd have come good but without game time they were never going to.

Even with these players being duds the squad itself was strong and continued to win trophies, qualify for the CL

[boratsbrother]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

 

If we have a terrible season this season we're completely screwed.

 

 

No offence intended, but that is wildly ott nonsense!

If we do have another terrible season (quite possible) then all we do is pick ourselves up next summer and go again, just like every other club which has a bad season has to do. If next season is bad then we go again the season after that, that is how football works. Unlike individual sports it's not time limited by age, so there's always a better future ahead if a club starts making the right decisions from top to bottom. Just look at where Luton have been in recent years and where they are now as proof of that.

[chara]

3 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

No offence intended, but that is wildly ott nonsense!

If we do have another terrible season (quite possible) then all we do is pick ourselves up next summer and go again, just like every other club which has a bad season has to do. If next season is bad then we go again the season after that, that is how football works. Unlike individual sports it's not time limited by age, so there's always a better future ahead if a club starts making the right decisions from top to bottom. Just look at where Luton have been in recent years and where they are now as proof of that.

Leicester's title season?

[Max Fowler]

39 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

No offence intended, but that is wildly ott nonsense!

If we do have another terrible season (quite possible) then all we do is pick ourselves up next summer and go again, just like every other club which has a bad season has to do. If next season is bad then we go again the season after that, that is how football works. Unlike individual sports it's not time limited by age, so there's always a better future ahead if a club starts making the right decisions from top to bottom. Just look at where Luton have been in recent years and where they are now as proof of that.

Another resident of cloud cuckoo land. 

If we finish 12th again next season - we are not completely screwed? If Poch gets sacked, if the players get booed off week after week? Who is going to want to stay? Enzo? Our other "star players"? They will be on the next flight out of London.

Where do we go from there?

We simply cannot have a repeat of last season. The fact you seem somewhat okay with it is baffling. I get it - you're pushing back against fan entitlement, but we need some signs of progress. Anything - 6th, 8th even is in the right direction.

Chelsea is Chelsea. Not Luton. We have expectations. And right now we have a project that people still believe in. How long will that continue if Chelsea becomes a graveyard for top players and managers? 

One more time - last season can never be allowed to happen again. We would have been relegated if not for Tuchel.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Max Fowler

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

Another resident of cloud cuckoo land. 

If we finish 12th again next season - we are not completely screwed? If Poch gets sacked, if the players get booed off week after week? Who is going to want to stay? Enzo? Our other "star players"? They will be on the next flight out of London.

Where do we go from there?

We simply cannot have a repeat of last season. The fact you seem somewhat okay with it is baffling. I get it - you're pushing back against fan entitlement, but we need some signs of progress. Anything - 6th, 8th even is in the right direction.

Chelsea is Chelsea. Not Luton. We have expectations. And right now we have a project that people still believe in. How long will that continue if Chelsea becomes a graveyard for top players and managers? 

One more time - last season can never be allowed to happen again. We would have been relegated if not for Tuchel.

 

Sorry you are one in cloud cuckoo land. 
 

last season cannot be used as a yard stick, due to the owners incompetence of hiring a nobody coaching team, after removing TT, instead of hiring someone like poch, and hitting a panic putting in the January window.
The minimum should be 5th as a bench mark. 
 

As for the project, big clubs like ManUre, the Arse and Dippers have had the same epiphany for squad exorcism and they are still searching for a way to win the league. 
 

With regards to the likes of Enzo and moving or how he performs on this will be driven by results on the field not fans reactions. What will be more interesting to see if poch has the gonads to drop him if his form dips, which was something the past two coaches refused to do. 

As for a players graveyard, there is a very good possibility that maybe 25 - 50% of the winstanley & co recruitments  will make it in top teams, therefore it obvious to non rose tinted glasses that the current highly assembled squad will not deliver the mantra some believe.

[Max Fowler]

59 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Sorry you are one in cloud cuckoo land. 
 

last season cannot be used as a yard stick, due to the owners incompetence of hiring a nobody coaching team, after removing TT, instead of hiring someone like poch, and hitting a panic putting in the January window.
The minimum should be 5th as a bench mark. 
 

As for the project, big clubs like ManUre, the Arse and Dippers have had the same epiphany for squad exorcism and they are still searching for a way to win the league. 
 

With regards to the likes of Enzo and moving or how he performs on this will be driven by results on the field not fans reactions. What will be more interesting to see if poch has the gonads to drop him if his form dips, which was something the past two coaches refused to do. 

As for a players graveyard, there is a very good possibility that maybe 25 - 50% of the winstanley & co recruitments  will make it in top teams, therefore it obvious to non rose tinted glasses that the current highly assembled squad will not deliver the mantra some believe.

I think you just insulted me only to agree with me.

ROTG still Lord Mayor of Cloud Cuckoo Land. Mark Kelly his noble deputy.

[Ham]

Am I the only one who feels that with tweaks and luck with injuries, we'll be fine this season?

 

[chara]

26 minutes ago, Ham said:

Am I the only one who feels that with tweaks and luck with injuries, we'll be fine this season?

 

No..I'm with you Ham...I guess we would make a great windmill tilting duo!!

[Ham]

2 minutes ago, chara said:

No..I'm with you Ham...I guess we would make a great windmill tilting duo!!

Not gonna lie. I had to Google that 😂

[boratsbrother]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

Am I the only one who feels that with tweaks and luck with injuries, we'll be fine this season?

 

Depends on what your idea of a fine season would be?

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

Am I the only one who feels that with tweaks and luck with injuries, we'll be fine this season?

 

Here's the bottom of the away league table for last season. 

That's who we just lost to in dreadful fashion at home.

And that's why everything has now changed.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Max Fowler

[Ham]

24 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Depends on what your idea of a fine season would be?

A lot of top teams will drop a lot of points. New players and new coach. I'm hoping we've just made a slow start.

The positive possession and attacking stats aside from goals scored are all top 3. 

Once we click, we'll be top 5. 

[ROTG]

21 minutes ago, Ham said:

 

Once we click, we'll be top 5. 

In which decade?

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

I think you just insulted me only to agree with me.

insults are for the school yard along with stick and stones.

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

ROTG still Lord Mayor of Cloud Cuckoo Land. 

Not sure if I appreciate being put on the same pedestal as Sadiq khan 😀

[Floyd25]

7 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

If we do have another terrible season (quite possible) then all we do is pick ourselves up next summer and go again, just like every other club which has a bad season has to do.

Not really because the owners need to see a return on their investment and it needs to be gradual progress back to the top over the next few years, or we start to come unstuck in regards to FFP. Just wish we’d rebuilt the squad with more of a blend of youth and and experience rather than youth and Sterling, but that’s my opinion. 

[Gurj SS]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

Here's the bottom of the away league table for last season. 

That's who we just lost to in dreadful fashion at home.

And that's why everything has now changed.

Yeah, that's bad, very bad. They finished under a team which got relegated. Our issue is we have to see the team from two angles, one angle is what level they are at now and the other angle is what they could become; and I think us fans are finding ourselves on different sides to each other which is why there's so much tension when talking about the subject. My biggest concern is this, as things stand in my opinion the squad isn't good enough due to a number of reasons, potential still being reached, experience still being gained, players not being mature yet and not having enough seniors to guide them or fall back on; if Poch and the club are unable to make real strides over this break we could end up in freefall. Now I'm not saying we'll get relegated by any means, but if we do find ourselves near or in the relegation zone after 4-5 more games who fancies putting their house on a team with an average age of 22 to bounce back and go on to become a success? The media and fans are vultures and these young'uns live on social media watching podcasts after podcasts, price tags are already thrown around, we've seen established and vastly experienced players fold under the same pressures, we're already closer to the vital tipping point than we realise.

That's a little too doom and gloom I know, but the key thing to remeber is Nott-Forest didn't beat us because they had the talent to on the pitch, they just used a simple thing called game managment; something players learn with experience of being in certain situations and also managers; not in relegation situations as such but expectations and walking away knowing they made the right decisions in a game (player's trust in themselves is also vital, not confidence but to trust themselves and not dwell on it). So far in our squad the following have faced such pressure: Silva, James, Chilly, Enzo and Sterling. The rest have not needed to carry their load and someone else's, if things get murky I'm not sure we have the mental capacity to bounce back. Nott-Forest did a very simple thing, they frustrated us and waited, and they were happy to wait 90mins if need be; almost every team in the league will be happy to do the same and my concerns are our players not only lack the experience but at this very moment they haven't reached the quality they need to be at where a team of Nott-Forest's quality is a walk in the park. Some games will simply have to be easy or we'll have players mentally burned out, have we got the current quality to win a game easily? No we don't, and how long will we need to, no, how long can we wait for the potential to become a reality?

I hate being negative on the squad because reality is they've just signed for a club, that's all, but I have serious doubts over if the club was taking into account the mental state and pressures to put on a group of lads who are still finding their way in the world of football. If Palmer played well in a City game he stayed on, if things weren't going to plan Pep could simply pass the buck onto someone like Foden or a football icon like De Bruyne, hug Palmer as he comes off and tell him well done; because he has done well regardless, and it's now De Bruyne's job to go make the team win and if they don't Palmer doesn't need to worry because the big guns couldn't do it either, if they do then he still doesn't need to worry because it took the big guns to come off the bench, no pressure. But we have no big guns, these young lads have the label of big guns but we all know they're not that, they're still pistols.

[Max Fowler]

51 minutes ago, Gurj SS said:

Yeah, that's bad, very bad. They finished under a team which got relegated. Our issue is we have to see the team from two angles, one angle is what level they are at now and the other angle is what they could become; and I think us fans are finding ourselves on different sides to each other which is why there's so much tension when talking about the subject. My biggest concern is this, as things stand in my opinion the squad isn't good enough due to a number of reasons, potential still being reached, experience still being gained, players not being mature yet and not having enough seniors to guide them or fall back on; if Poch and the club are unable to make real strides over this break we could end up in freefall. Now I'm not saying we'll get relegated by any means, but if we do find ourselves near or in the relegation zone after 4-5 more games who fancies putting their house on a team with an average age of 22 to bounce back and go on to become a success? The media and fans are vultures and these young'uns live on social media watching podcasts after podcasts, price tags are already thrown around, we've seen established and vastly experienced players fold under the same pressures, we're already closer to the vital tipping point than we realise.

That's a little too doom and gloom I know, but the key thing to remeber is Nott-Forest didn't beat us because they had the talent to on the pitch, they just used a simple thing called game managment; something players learn with experience of being in certain situations and also managers; not in relegation situations as such but expectations and walking away knowing they made the right decisions in a game (player's trust in themselves is also vital, not confidence but to trust themselves and not dwell on it). So far in our squad the following have faced such pressure: Silva, James, Chilly, Enzo and Sterling. The rest have not needed to carry their load and someone else's, if things get murky I'm not sure we have the mental capacity to bounce back. Nott-Forest did a very simple thing, they frustrated us and waited, and they were happy to wait 90mins if need be; almost every team in the league will be happy to do the same and my concerns are our players not only lack the experience but at this very moment they haven't reached the quality they need to be at where a team of Nott-Forest's quality is a walk in the park. Some games will simply have to be easy or we'll have players mentally burned out, have we got the current quality to win a game easily? No we don't, and how long will we need to, no, how long can we wait for the potential to become a reality?

I hate being negative on the squad because reality is they've just signed for a club, that's all, but I have serious doubts over if the club was taking into account the mental state and pressures to put on a group of lads who are still finding their way in the world of football. If Palmer played well in a City game he stayed on, if things weren't going to plan Pep could simply pass the buck onto someone like Foden or a football icon like De Bruyne, hug Palmer as he comes off and tell him well done; because he has done well regardless, and it's now De Bruyne's job to go make the team win and if they don't Palmer doesn't need to worry because the big guns couldn't do it either, if they do then he still doesn't need to worry because it took the big guns to come off the bench, no pressure. But we have no big guns, these young lads have the label of big guns but we all know they're not that, they're still pistols.

Exactly - even Jackson, who looked really up for the fight in recent weeks, crumbled under pressure at the weekend. He had that Mudryk look in the eye - a man who knows he blew it and can't take the heat from the expectant fans.

Some of our players must still be traumatized from playing at home last season - that trauma is transmitting silently from Enzo to Jackson and each confident youth that is put through the Clearlake mould. Confidence destroyed. Careers ruined.

[xceleryx]

11 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

You've shone light on the youth policy and noone disagrees with investing in young players. In fact, under the right circumstances the new Clearlake strategy could pay off big time long-term.

The problem is - we are not creating the right circumstances for anyone at the club, let alone the young players to thrive. How are they going to develop confidence if we have a repeat of last season?

Where would we have been so far this season without the experience of Sterling? One of those "high cost established players" you seem so allergic to. Perhaps you should be the one to Drinkwater!

Don't like Oshimen? Maddison? Fine. There must be one or two experienced players out there who you like. Kane? Oh, that's right, we have an arbitrary policy of not buying players over 25 this summer.

It's a little rich to say we're not creating the "right environment" when we're 4 games into a new season with a new manager. It's been well documented that Poch has come in and made changes to create a fresh start - even with things like where the players park. By all accounts the vibe within the dressing room has been brilliant leading into the season, and while the results haven't quite been what we'd all have liked we're far away from where things were last season and the negativity that brought. Believe it or not, there is a middle ground here. 

Mate, the majority of this forum was shitting on Sterling and wanting him out the door - some still do. You get the irony here, right? 

Never said I didn't like Oshimen, Maddison or even Kane. They're all great players, but it's also not as straight forward as you're portraying either. As I said, Oshimen ain't leaving Napoli unless some outrageous transfer fee is paid  - reaffirmed by ADL a day or so ago when he come out saying €200m would get his left foot. Maddison would've been nice but we also signed Nkunku for the same role, and he has an iffy injury history which we know doesn't go down well here. And Kane is Kane, not chance Levy ever sold to us or if he'd join. 

Not that it matters who I want anyway, I don't work for the club or have a say. 

[xceleryx]

11 hours ago, Gurj SS said:

 But these guys didn't play much, they very quickly fell down the pecking order and a lack of game time made things even worse, not saying they'd have come good but without game time they were never going to.

Lavia and Ugochukwu are both 19 years old, if we don't start winning and winning well then they can't be picked for any game time over Caicedo, Gallagher and Enzo; so what we have is not the case of a Bakayoko and Drinkwater situation, but rather we run a huge risk of making them turn into them.

Isn't so much about how much they played, it was to showcase that we've spent a lot of money on middle of the rung players that didn't move the needle, and had little room for improvement. 

I'd rather see that money put into younger players with greater upside, if they develop into what's envisioned then great. If not, then they're likely to be easier to sell assets that will do better retaining value. 

[kev61]

17 hours ago, Thiago97 said:

I

Anyway rant over! Just get a grip some of you…..even if you did call it correct and early. Well done ! 

Nothing wrong with a good rant and I know you were not singling me out,I wish I had your restraint!.

As Mark Kelly said why has he changed so many things that was so successful in pre -season?.

When you make mistakes like playing Chilwell as a winger and not playing  Maatsen who was one of our best players pre -season that can play in several positions,and then play this slow build up from the back that an under 12 team could defend against you have to worry.

I still have faith in Poch,  but it is wearing thin,and I say that with a heart felt desire I am wrong - and he and the team will flourish. 

 

[xceleryx]

33 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Nothing wrong with a good rant and I know you were not singling me out,I wish I had your restraint!.

As Mark Kelly said why has he changed so many things that was so successful in pre -season?.

When you make mistakes like playing Chilwell as a winger and not playing  Maatsen who was one of our best players pre -season that can play in several positions,and then play this slow build up from the back that an under 12 team could defend against you have to worry.

I still have faith in Poch,  but it is wearing thin,and I say that with a heart felt desire I am wrong - and he and the team will flourish. 

Looking at our pre-season games and the line-ups, you can see why things have changed to a degree.

Game 1: Cucurella LB, Maatsen LW, Chuk AMC, Jackson ST
Game 2: Chilwell LB, Maatsen LW, Chuk AMC, Nkunku ST
Game 3: Cucurella LB, Maatsen LW, Nkunku AMC, Jackson ST
Game 4: Chilwell LB, Nkunku LW, Chuk AMC, Burstow ST
Game 5: Chilwell LB, Nkunku LW, Chuk AMC, Jackson ST

We've lost both Nkunku and Chukwuemeka to injury early in the fold, as we can see it's completely thrown a spanner in the works. Nkunku would've likely played on the left wing, and Chukwuemeka in an attacking midfield role, with Jackson up top and Sterling on the right. 

As for Maatsen, maybe his uncertain future played a role in his selection so far? Wouldn't make sense to make a player who had a high probability of leaving before the end of the transfer window a figure in the side. With his future now sorted until at least January, maybe that'll now change after the international break.

Madueke's just returned from injury after missing all of pre-season, so he'll now be a more viable option moving forward. As will Mudryk, who's had a bit of a stop-start beginning of the season himself. We'll also have Palmer in the mix which wasn't an option in pre-season, he'll likely operate either in that attacking midfield role or off the right. Which would allow Sterling to shift back to the left if desired. 

In fairness to Pochettino he's been a little restricted with his attacking options thus far.  Not that I'm advocating for Chilwell to be playing LW, but it's not as if Maatsen for example is necessarily the answer either. He's a fullback/wingback himself, so it's much of a much really. 

[Sleeping Dave]

15 hours ago, Ham said:

In pre season with Nkunku on the pitch, everything clicked better.  Both him and Jackson were scoring for fun and the pressure to change a game was taken off Mudryk which meant he played with more freedom and confidence.

You shouldn't underestimate the impact of one missing link. I think we bought smart but injuries AGAIN have screwed us. 

Nkunku performed in pre-season. So did a few of the others. That’s not the same as performing in the league - at all.

If Nkunku doesn’t perform upon his return (Christmas?) then what? What is our plan B? Carney? Well he’s injured as well. Palmer? He ain’t a goalscorer, just like the rest. Jackson can be, but he’s some way from being a genuine goalscorer in England. The recruitment team has left us woefully short in experience and goals. Unfortunately for us, that’s essentials in the Premier League. 

[Gurj SS]

3 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Isn't so much about how much they played, it was to showcase that we've spent a lot of money on middle of the rung players that didn't move the needle, and had little room for improvement. 

I'd rather see that money put into younger players with greater upside, if they develop into what's envisioned then great. If not, then they're likely to be easier to sell assets that will do better retaining value. 

Fair enough but the players ahead of them were established players, and we all knew we were signing squad fillers who were happy not developing into something else because they didn't have the ability to. Expensive squad fillers, could just have used academy players, and we could have done something the same and even convinced Kante to sign a 1 year extension to support the young lads, RLC didn't go for huge money and could have done another year on the bench.

Players like Lavia are different. We have two 19 year old CMs who simply cannot afford to go a season sitting on the bench when they were touted as having breakthrough seasons, it's the reason we have sent players like Santos out of loan. Lavia already cost a fair bit for his age, if he ends up going on loan next season and goes on to be 21 the season after we'll have a player for 2 years who couldn't break into our first team; we're not making a profit on him, clubs will force the player to make moves to leave either on loan or a reduced fee. No one is paying us more than we paid if he can't breakthrough into the starting lineup, because they simply don't have to, they can easily go find a player the same age or younger with the same or better experience and invest in them for less.

Mudryk unless he has been bluffing us all, would leave at a loss. Players like Nkunku and Jackson would have to be stolen off us, and if they went for mega money deals then it'll be clear we're in the business of generating as much profit as possible even if it means not winning and losing key quality to be successful; because we got them as very good prices and it'll be near impossible to repeat the same again, we'll become like a more upmarket Southampton? It's strange what can change in a season, us fans should be disscussing a return to top 4 football, not if we'd be able to make a profit on players if things don't go to plan.

[Sleeping Dave]

45 minutes ago, Gurj SS said:

Fair enough but the players ahead of them were established players, and we all knew we were signing squad fillers who were happy not developing into something else because they didn't have the ability to. Expensive squad fillers, could just have used academy players, and we could have done something the same and even convinced Kante to sign a 1 year extension to support the young lads, RLC didn't go for huge money and could have done another year on the bench.

Players like Lavia are different. We have two 19 year old CMs who simply cannot afford to go a season sitting on the bench when they were touted as having breakthrough seasons, it's the reason we have sent players like Santos out of loan. Lavia already cost a fair bit for his age, if he ends up going on loan next season and goes on to be 21 the season after we'll have a player for 2 years who couldn't break into our first team; we're not making a profit on him, clubs will force the player to make moves to leave either on loan or a reduced fee. No one is paying us more than we paid if he can't breakthrough into the starting lineup, because they simply don't have to, they can easily go find a player the same age or younger with the same or better experience and invest in them for less.

Mudryk unless he has been bluffing us all, would leave at a loss. Players like Nkunku and Jackson would have to be stolen off us, and if they went for mega money deals then it'll be clear we're in the business of generating as much profit as possible even if it means not winning and losing key quality to be successful; because we got them as very good prices and it'll be near impossible to repeat the same again, we'll become like a more upmarket Southampton? It's strange what can change in a season, us fans should be disscussing a return to top 4 football, not if we'd be able to make a profit on players if things don't go to plan.

Amen. 

Also, if the following doesn’t perform as expected, how likely are we to make a profit on their fee? 

Caicedo £100m

Enzo £105m

Fofana £69m

Mudryk £60m

Lavia £53m

Palmer £40m

Jackson £32m

Badiashile £32m

Madueke £30m

Gusto £25m

Ugochukwu £23m

Chukwuemeka £16m

Washington £14m

Angelo Gabriel £13m

Santos £11m

DD Fofana £10m

Slonina £8m

Very few, in any, could be expected to be sold at a profit if they don’t succeed here. Maybe Slonina and a few of the Brazilians and DD Fofana. Possibly Chuk as well. That’s it. But one would do well to remember that these guys are on salaries that are perhaps not high for the PL but top salaries for virtually any other league. They are also all on long-term deals of +6 years…