paulw66 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 27 minutes ago, east lower said: Taking a selective sample that proves a point that you want to try to prove your own view on the world, isn’t fooling educated people (that’s the club doing it, not aimed at anyone here). The club took the first half of 2023 versus second half of 2023. I then extended that to cover the whole of 2022/23. Is it good enough? No. Is it improvement? Yes. (by whatever metric you want to use) 28 minutes ago, east lower said: . A better Championship team has us goal/s down at half-time. Preston’s form is lamentable lately. You can't just make stuff up and pass it off as fact. The first half, whilst pretty dire from an attacking sense, had no danger on our goal. Who knows what might have happened against a stronger team. We lost at home to Brentford and Forest, we drew at home to City and Arsenal. It really doesn't work anywhere near as simply as you have put. 28 minutes ago, east lower said: The coach set out his own expectations (and possibly the owners also?) at the start of the season and I think that between 44-60 points for the season wasn’t stated. Top four was and we’re probably not getting anywhere near enough points for that. If he can, then he’s done far better than I expected. Well, let's wait and see how it pans out. I am willing to reserve judgement until we have an experienced no9, and perhaps one day we might even go into a fixture with a full squad. I think the best we have ever had this season is a game with 6 missing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east lower Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 27 minutes ago, paulw66 said: The club took the first half of 2023 versus second half of 2023. I then extended that to cover the whole of 2022/23. Is it good enough? No. Is it improvement? Yes. (by whatever metric you want to use) If you're willing to buy into that as acceptable, that's your prerogative. However the bar was set far higher, by the fella in the job and if we continue to improve by 10 points a season then we've only got 4 or 5 seasons to go before we can mount any sort of a challenge, assuming by that time anyone of any note is still interested in us a top-tier football club. 27 minutes ago, paulw66 said: You can't just make stuff up and pass it off as fact. The first half, whilst pretty dire from an attacking sense, had no danger on our goal. Who knows what might have happened against a stronger team. We lost at home to Brentford and Forest, we drew at home to City and Arsenal. It really doesn't work anywhere near as simply as you have put. It's an opinion and whether you agree or not, it was entirely possible - Put a Leicester, Ipswich, Leeds on that pitch on Saturday and there's a high degree of possibility we're chasing that game. Put a PL team out there and we don't get the result, assuming our performance was the same. 27 minutes ago, paulw66 said: Well, let's wait and see how it pans out. I am willing to reserve judgement until we have an experienced no9, and perhaps one day we might even go into a fixture with a full squad. I think the best we have ever had this season is a game with 6 missing. Could have, should have, would have - If, buts & maybe's - He isn't improving people generally or performances and results are questionable in the extreme. If you enjoyed watching that dross, or a number of performances under this coach that's fine, I don't but we'll wait and see how it turns out. However, I think that the answer to that last one is known - It's just a matter of when. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 34 minutes ago, east lower said: If you're willing to buy into that as acceptable, that's your prerogative. I find it frustrating when people don't read what they reply to. I literally wrote, Is "it good enough? No" So, no, to be clear, it isn't. 34 minutes ago, east lower said: It's an opinion and whether you agree or not, it was entirely possible - Put a Leicester, Ipswich, Leeds on that pitch on Saturday and there's a high degree of possibility we're chasing that game. Put a PL team out there and we don't get the result, assuming our performance was the same. But that's just it, it wouldn't be. It just doesn't work like that. 34 minutes ago, east lower said: Could have, should have, would have - If, buts & maybe's - He isn't improving people generally or performances and results are questionable in the extreme. If you enjoyed watching that dross, or a number of performances under this coach that's fine, I don't but we'll wait and see how it turns out. However, I think that the answer to that last one is known - It's just a matter of when. I think the long list of injuries has certainly stunted the progress, which is why I reserve full judgment. In most of the games we have failed to win this year, we have had chances to not lose (either win or draw) but we haven't taken them. It doesnt matter who the coach is, we need an experienced CF. Nkunku being fit would also help. I would say Gallagher is an obvious example of someone who has improved drastically in 2023/24 versus the one we saw in 2022/23.......but I'm sure that isn't down to the coach because........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCreadie Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 40 minutes ago, east lower said: 2 minutes ago, paulw66 said: I would say Gallagher is an obvious example of someone who has improved drastically in 2023/24 versus the one we saw in 2022/23.......but I'm sure that isn't down to the coach because........... Sterling, Mudryk and Cucurella have all been a lot better than last year too. Perfect no. Improved yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east lower Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 24 minutes ago, paulw66 said: I would say Gallagher is an obvious example of someone who has improved drastically in 2023/24 versus the one we saw in 2022/23.......but I'm sure that isn't down to the coach because........... ......................his contract is up for/soon up for renewal and he wants to stay with Chelsea........................................................ and the coach has made him third choice captain. 3 goals last season, zero so far this season - But better overall this season. Happens a lot when footballers are looking for improved, renewals of contracts 33 minutes ago, McCreadie said: Sterling, Mudryk and Cucurella have all been a lot better than last year too. Perfect no. Improved yes. Sterling, & Cucurella are seasoned pro's and you expect good form and bad form. In fairness it would have been quite an achievement to get either to perform worse than last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwmh Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 15 hours ago, xceleryx said: Thought on this then, since you're allergic to xG and prefer cold hard facts? All of which has been achieved with the youngest squad in the league, that's also propped up by having 39 year old Thiago Silva and only been together for the last 5-6 months. Not including the continued laundry list of injuries that've required shuffling of the remaining deck, on top of handling the pre-existing gaps the squad already had in general. You are comparing 3 wins over Championship or lower oppo with 2 losses to RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 9 hours ago, paulw66 said: Edit - we are currently on targer (pro rata) for 53 points. Not enough, granted, but we got 44 last season, so a 20% increase. Pro rata maybe but I think we're going to improve greatly in the second half of the season and will finish with 10 more than that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 On 06/01/2024 at 03:59, kev61 said: A very fine speech.I would have agreed with you 10 years ago.When you spend the amount of money we have on players you would expect a player to excel. Let's get excited about Enzo and Caicedo? - let's get excited about Jackson?.The only player I'm excited about is Palmer. You can obviously see multi million pound baby steps,I don't,and even if I did....not enough imo. I think everyone's right here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xceleryx Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 6 hours ago, Ham said: Pro rata maybe but I think we're going to improve greatly in the second half of the season and will finish with 10 more than that. 10 might be pushing it a little for me, but I don't think it's outlandish to believe we'll see more improvement in the second half of the season. Some of that may hinge on what roles our returning players can have, and if that remain fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 (edited) 22 hours ago, east lower said: . Happens a lot when footballers are looking for improved, renewals of contracts As predicted, the coach gets no credit for a player who has improved, but the blame for those that haven't 16 hours ago, Dwmh said: You are comparing 3 wins over Championship or lower oppo with 2 losses to RM. Let's remove the RM games and the LC games against lower league teams, and you have: P26 W5 D8 L13 F21 A31 P22 W9 D5 L8 F36 A32 It's still an improvement, albeit still not good enough. 15 hours ago, Ham said: Pro rata maybe but I think we're going to improve greatly in the second half of the season and will finish with 10 more than that. Pro rata was all I had to go on. I am not going to make an argument on what we may or may not do for the next half a season, but even with zero improvement, the points tally will be up, it's just a case of how much. Edited January 9 by paulw66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east lower Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, paulw66 said: As predicted, the coach gets no credit for a player who has improved, but the blame for those that haven't Works that way sometimes……….or is that another that doesn’t work that way, as you are the self-appointed authority on that sort of thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 45 minutes ago, east lower said: Works that way sometimes……….or is that another that doesn’t work that way, as you are the self-appointed authority on that sort of thing. no self-appointed anything, but you cant blame the coach for not improving a player(s) then dismiss the coaches' contribution when one clearly improves. It is just cherry picking to suit an argument. Either you credit / blame the coach for player performances, or you ignore / exonerate the coach for player performances, good or bad. You can't selectively choose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east lower Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 3 hours ago, paulw66 said: no self-appointed anything, but you cant blame the coach for not improving a player(s) then dismiss the coaches' contribution when one clearly improves. It is just cherry picking to suit an argument. Either you credit / blame the coach for player performances, or you ignore / exonerate the coach for player performances, good or bad. You can't selectively choose. But, you can if you can potentially identify reasons and using Gallagher as the example there’s enough previous cases where the reasons I’ve stated for improvement have occurred without any coach involvement. There’s not such a hard and fast rule like that in my rule book, there are degrees. In my world he’s turned us into a turgid mess, it’s not just him as I’m as harsh on the way the owners have acted, albeit they have spent money - unwisely at times. He wasn’t good enough at the start and there’s very little he’s done to change that opinion. However, that’s all it is - an opinion. The only skin I have in the game is it’s my club, the one I support and put a great deal of my time into. Ideally I want the coach to be as invested as I am, but I’m not naive enough to believe that exists. But he has to show that he can improve us, 10 points a season or so isn’t enough for me. The same points as last year would be ok if I could see the pathways emerging for improvement- sadly I can’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwmh Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 22 hours ago, Ham said: Pro rata maybe but I think we're going to improve greatly in the second half of the season and will finish with 10 more than that. We need to see some much better performances first. While we have had a few wins they have all been poor performances. Nothing yet to suggest we can beat Fulham at the weekend. My guess is we can't. 7 hours ago, paulw66 said: Let's remove the RM games and the LC games against lower league teams, and you have: P26 W5 D8 L13 F21 A31 P22 W9 D5 L8 F36 A32 It's still an improvement, albeit still not good enough. A much fairer comparison. Now remove Lampards run of I think W1D2L6 and it is : P17 W4 D6 L7 F12 A14* P22 W9 D5 L8 F36 A32 That is a fairer comparison. I agree we look better with those numbers. I don't think we look like a 60 point team though. *Goals look low both F and A. I just subtracted the SFL goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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