Luton Town 2 Chelsea 3

[My Blood Is Blue]

I’ve said similar already, but at this point in time I couldn’t care less about xG or even the way in which we perform to get our points as where we are as a club at the moment, where this team currently is in this present season, all that matters is getting the points and whether that means a bunch of 1-0 wins with the goal coming from an own goal every time, I honestly couldn’t care less. We just need to pick up as many points as we can, whilst allowing this (virtually) brand new squad time to adjust to each other and the league and give ourselves at least a half decent base to continue to build on for next season in terms of confidence and league positioning.

Do I want to watch amazing, exciting and attacking football? Of course I do, but let’s be patient and let’s celebrate and enjoy the wins when they come as they really haven’t been coming very often in the last couple of years.

[east lower]

8 hours ago, kev61 said:

Look forget about everything beyond his control.The FACT is he is making a dogs dinner with the players at his disposal.

In simple terms, mainly because I am a simple sort of a bloke and football is a simple game made complicated by money and what that drives - A football manager (latterly) and now head-coach has two fairly straightforward objectives:

1.  Improve the performance of the players and the team
2. WIN football matches

Has our coach done No.1? Generally not, we've a world-cup winner who looks like an ordinary midfielder with us and arguably is performing at a lesser level than with us last season (direct comparison) and a midfielder who  when with Brighton looked twice the player he is with us.

Is our coach winning enough matches? Again the answer is NO - Losing games to Brentford, Nottingham Forest, Wolves, Everton. Getting thrashed by Newcastle, performing lamentably against the worst Man Utd team in two decades. That's not the full list but enough for me.

We still cannot identify what type of team we are, when he tries to adapt we lose. At Luton, it was his changes/substitutions that seemed to be the catalyst for the defensive demise. We had defended OK up to that point.

His previous record was why I was initially sceptical of  his appointment and the reasons above are why I just can't trust him  to build anything with us. Along while back I said that he'd gone full-coward after a promising pre-season, nothings changed that view either.

We've bright sparks within the team but we need someone that nurtures and improves that - Be Cole Palmer for a short while. You've come from arguably one of the great coaches into Chelsea, for more game time as has been stated. You've got that, so you're happy -  for a while. Then as you're getting acknowledged as a real top-level talent you find your team muddling around mid-table, how's that going to end up?

Edited January 2 by east lower

[ROTG]

8 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

As I understand it the club has written to the FA and asked for the opposition to be upgraded to Bayern Munich and Barcelona . 

And for the matches to be played in LA

[xceleryx]

7 hours ago, east lower said:

In simple terms, mainly because I am a simple sort of a bloke and football is a simple game made complicated by money and what that drives - A football manager (latterly) and now head-coach has two fairly straightforward objectives:

1.  Improve the performance of the players and the team
2. WIN football matches

Has our coach done No.1? Generally not, we've a world-cup winner who looks like an ordinary midfielder with us and arguably is performing at a lesser level than with us last season (direct comparison) and a midfielder who  when with Brighton looked twice the player he is with us.

Is our coach winning enough matches? Again the answer is NO - Losing games to Brentford, Nottingham Forest, Wolves, Everton. Getting thrashed by Newcastle, performing lamentably against the worst Man Utd team in two decades. That's not the full list but enough for me.

We still cannot identify what type of team we are, when he tries to adapt we lose. At Luton, it was his changes/substitutions that seemed to be the catalyst for the defensive demise. We had defended OK up to that point.

His previous record was why I was initially sceptical of  his appointment and the reasons above are why I just can't trust him  to build anything with us. Along while back I said that he'd gone full-coward after a promising pre-season, nothings changed that view either.

We've bright sparks within the team but we need someone that nurtures and improves that - Be Cole Palmer for a short while. You've come from arguably one of the great coaches into Chelsea, for more game time as has been stated. You've got that, so you're happy -  for a while. Then as you're getting acknowledged as a real top-level talent you find your team muddling around mid-table, how's that going to end up?

I know you've said you're a simple sort of bloke and football is a simple game made complicated, but this is why you can't always just take things for what they appear to be on a surface level. 

Enzo's form has certainly dropped but is that because of coaching, or is more likely to be a side effect of having virtually played constantly over the last 18 months to where fatigue has set in? On top of that we've now learnt he's also been carrying a hernia situation. I don't see how even the best coaching in the world would remedy either of these and provide an uptick in performance levels. 

You're right in that we're not winning enough matches, but again what constitutes "enough" based on what the coach has had to work with? In some of those games mentioned where we dropped points, not all of those results came about because of subdue coaching, but more down to either individual mistakes defensively, a lack of composure in front of goal, or both. We've also struggled against Man Utd for years now, doesn't matter how good of a team we've had, or how bad Man Utd have been themselves, we tend to always find it a tough slog. 

Again, you're right in that we somewhat lack an identity as a team. When Poch was manager of Southampton, you knew what team they were, likewise with his time at Tottenham. So, he can do it. That then raises the question of why isn't it happening here? Maybe some significant impactors include the turnover had and this group only having played together for the past 5-6 months? Maybe it's the laundry list of injuries creating not only an inability to call upon some of our best players, but to also field a consistent team that can settle, develop chemistry and cohesion together? Just as it could be the sheer inexperience this team carries due to the age of a lot of our players. His game management requires work either way, that I do accept. 

I get your point that we need someone that nurtures and improves the players, and as a whole the team, but I think you're also overlooking the importance in the coach being able to keep the mood around the group upbeat - something I think Poch has done a really good job with doing so far. The mental side of the game is often overlooked but it's just as crucial, if not more so, than the on pitch development at times.

There's also levels to this unique situation, which all players that we've signed have come on board being entirely aware of as it was pitched to them to begin with. We may not make immediate strides, as is the case currently, but we're also not locked into Poch for the next 5 years either. He's been a solid choice for where things currently sit, but we're able to move on from him in another 12 months if we feel he's served his initial purpose and there's better options out there to elevate us further. If players eventually choose to leave because they feel they've outgrown the club and where it's at at that specific moment in time, so be it. Players move regardless, even from top teams. That's football and the idea that we're going to keep everyone we've signed until the end of their contracts is wishful thinking. 

[kev61]

10 hours ago, east lower said:

In simple terms, mainly because I am a simple sort of a bloke and football is a simple game made complicated by money and what that drives - A football manager (latterly) and now head-coach has two fairly straightforward objectives:

1.  Improve the performance of the players and the team
2. WIN football matches

Has our coach done No.1? Generally not, we've a world-cup winner who looks like an ordinary midfielder with us and arguably is performing at a lesser level than with us last season (direct comparison) and a midfielder who  when with Brighton looked twice the player he is with us.

Is our coach winning enough matches? Again the answer is NO - Losing games to Brentford, Nottingham Forest, Wolves, Everton. Getting thrashed by Newcastle, performing lamentably against the worst Man Utd team in two decades. That's not the full list but enough for me.

We still cannot identify what type of team we are, when he tries to adapt we lose. At Luton, it was his changes/substitutions that seemed to be the catalyst for the defensive demise. We had defended OK up to that point.

His previous record was why I was initially sceptical of  his appointment and the reasons above are why I just can't trust him  to build anything with us. Along while back I said that he'd gone full-coward after a promising pre-season, nothings changed that view either.

We've bright sparks within the team but we need someone that nurtures and improves that - Be Cole Palmer for a short while. You've come from arguably one of the great coaches into Chelsea, for more game time as has been stated. You've got that, so you're happy -  for a while. Then as you're getting acknowledged as a real top-level talent you find your team muddling around mid-table, how's that going to end up?

We've had  people saying ''we miss Nkunku '' -   ''if only we had Chilwell and James back'' everything would magically  change.

I admit we have been unlucky with injuries and I said I don't totally blame Poch - however the Luton game proved to me he is a poor coach.

We almost didn't get a result because he let the Luton left side run amok.

He sits on the sideline passionless and befuddled - a real inspiration to wealthy kids my arse.There has to be a huge change of direction by the owners.

Sack Poch,Bohley and the rest of the policy makers...it has FAILED!!.

 

[Thiago97]

16 hours ago, east lower said:

In simple terms, mainly because I am a simple sort of a bloke and football is a simple game made complicated by money and what that drives - A football manager (latterly) and now head-coach has two fairly straightforward objectives:

1.  Improve the performance of the players and the team
2. WIN football matches

Has our coach done No.1? Generally not, we've a world-cup winner who looks like an ordinary midfielder with us and arguably is performing at a lesser level than with us last season (direct comparison) and a midfielder who  when with Brighton looked twice the player he is with us.

Is our coach winning enough matches? Again the answer is NO - Losing games to Brentford, Nottingham Forest, Wolves, Everton. Getting thrashed by Newcastle, performing lamentably against the worst Man Utd team in two decades. That's not the full list but enough for me.

We still cannot identify what type of team we are, when he tries to adapt we lose. At Luton, it was his changes/substitutions that seemed to be the catalyst for the defensive demise. We had defended OK up to that point.

His previous record was why I was initially sceptical of  his appointment and the reasons above are why I just can't trust him  to build anything with us. Along while back I said that he'd gone full-coward after a promising pre-season, nothings changed that view either.

We've bright sparks within the team but we need someone that nurtures and improves that - Be Cole Palmer for a short while. You've come from arguably one of the great coaches into Chelsea, for more game time as has been stated. You've got that, so you're happy -  for a while. Then as you're getting acknowledged as a real top-level talent you find your team muddling around mid-table, how's that going to end up?

Celery covered a number of points I was going to raise. 

In terms of not trusting him to build anything with us. Well, you may end up right there, but I would say a two year contract does not really suggest that the plan was to build anything with him. In many ways, I think Poch is almost a safe pair of hands with some top level experience.

There are a number of areas that we require improvement on, and a number of these sit with Poch to find a resolution too. However, you can see the from the players actions around the club and on the pitch, that I believe many of the players are enjoying working with him.

We have had a number of bad results/performances this season. How many times have we had our fans on here predicting the opposition win, or that he will be gone shortly, or the pressure will really increase when we lose the next match. The usual situation what happens when managers are under severe pressure , or may have lost the dressing room. Yet, we continue to pull out a result in these games. Wolves was hugely frustrating and a depressing loss, yet we go and win the next two which on paper were both tricky games, given our situation and the loss at Wolves.

I'm certainly not trying to convince you of Poch. You were one of the first to want him gone and that's fine. On paper, we should have won more matches, but on paper we should have also lost some more matches too. We need to try and find some consistency , as 8 wins and 8 losses is a mid table team that lacks consistency. I look around at the squad though and the opposition we are up against, and question where should we be? I would say, probably about 6th - 7th position in the table.   It's just unrealistic to expect any better than this really, when we have a porous defence that is still glued together by a 39 year old, thrown in with two new goalkeepers who had never played with them until 4-5 months back. Probably our best player at the club we cannot keep on the pitch, alongside raw strikers who are not ready to be leading the line at this level, week in week out. Why should we be any higher than around 6th - 7th in the table? We are 3-6pts off that at the half way stage.

If we can improve our 2nd half of the season and try and show some level of consistency, continue with progress in the cups. Poch will have had a very solid first season platform to build on. He might not be the man that turns us into PL contenders, but he needs to be judged on the job in hand now. A weak defence and no strikers better than mid table level, means you are a mid table team.

 

[Sabrina F.]

I find it hard to say Pochettino is not doing anything positive. I think by virtue of being a calm head, especially in moments with bad results, double-digit injury lists, rumors about key players sold for FFP, while being steadier and stronger than a Potter, has been a positive for the situation the club is in (or been put in by top management & ownership).

I do see player development. I see a Mudryk that's more functional tactically than he's ever been probably in his career, I see a lot of freedom granted for the likes of Cole Palmer and Jackson to express themselves, Gallagher used more smartly, Sterling has been better and fitter than last season, Colwill makes mistakes, but is also clearly on an upwards trajectory and so on. 

 

Freedom  has benefited them, they create and are at the end of a lot of chances. That's where the 2nd most xG in the league comes from. Freedom to be direct and operate in their favored spaces. At the detriment of the balance of the team, often, yes. At the detriment of the ideal "rest defence" to stop counters and transitions, definitely. At the detrimen of "ball control" that elite teams use to see out games, yes. It's all very 19/20 - which, for all its flaws allowed the next manager to inherit extremely good young players ready to make the next step.

 

So right now, we're 10th. In this league, there are only 3 elite teams. City and Liverpool have a track record of elite performance, and Arsenal is possibly getting there. That also means Top 4 was a long shot from the start, there's only one spot left, and the likelihood of that going to the team that's changed +20 players in the past 12 months, while going into the season with 2 new GKs for some reason and little sources of guaranteed goals in attack, was very small in the first place (and that's a failure of the investment/vision/whatever you want to call it).

 

There are 3 elite teams, and the rest will exchange positions depending on who goes on a run. Villa & West Ham went on runs where they typically outperform their xG massively, meanwhile Utd, Newcastle and Brighton have been hit with the epic injury +xG underperformance bug that's been hitting us for the 3rd season in a row now. 

 

Unsurprisingly, 2 sketchy wins in a row and we're suddenly 1 or 2 pts off those teams. That's the nature of this league. 3 elite teams, 3 historically bad teams at the bottom, and between those, anything can happen.

 

Now Poch is hardly a master tactician, his teams defend horribly by modern standards, the set-piece defending is hilariously bad, we press but we have a backline that drops 2 or 3 meters too deep whenever there's a transition instead of sniffing the ball at the earliest opportunity and with urgency, Caicedo is often left on an island. Alll very reminiscent of Lampard's 19/20 Chelsea.

The team isn't awful by any means, it often plays well enough but the tactical detail is very lacking.

 

The difference is, while I did believe a detail-oriented tactician was going to be an immediate, huge upgrade in 2020 or 2021, I'm very unsure we're currently an environment conducive to elite performance. Remember when Tuchel came in and said, he could focus on coaching a bunch of very good players and not have to worry about anything else like at PSG? Yeah, that's no longer the case. The coach has to worry about a lot of things, starting with the physical condition of each individual player: Lavia, seemingly unfit when he was bought in, an exhausted Enzo carrying a hernia, a Caicedo who clearly wasn't doing much at Brighton in preseason, both of them traveling to South America 3 or 4 times a month for international games and so on. He also has to almost individually coach some very unpolished players: Mudyk who has the tactical understanding of a U18 player, Madueke and his nonexistent final product, Nicolas Jackson playing only his 2nd full season of professional football, and way too many of such cases. An abundant number of project players for a very limited number of finished product players. 

 

So, you have a young squad requiring a lot of individual development, you have a squad with a LOT of players who need specific, individualized man management, and you have a squad that's been carrying a 10+ names on the weekly injury report.

And oh, one of the most utilized players in Gallagher, could be sold anytime if he doesn't renew his contract.

 

Now, imagine a Tuchel or Conte or Mourinho or Sarri in this position. I would argue they'd bang their heads against the wall and probably implode. We've seen them get frustrated in much better organized, structured versions of the club with better, more experienced players. 

 

We are simply not ready, as a club, for elite performance, and that's not on Poch. If it was this easy, replace the manager by someone simply more competent ... Those days are gone. It happened with Roman because the squad had a core of 8-9 players of each iteration with proven track records at the very elite, ready to be coached up by elite managers, to rebound and have immediate success, even if in limited short bursts.

 

Nothing about this squad, and frankly about the club right now, screams ready for immediate success. So I'm mostly grateful for Pochettino's "I have seen it all" experience right now, I imagine this is much closer to the club situation he's lived through at Espanyol when he started out than any other environment in his career.

[Rob B]

11 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

I find it hard to say Pochettino is not doing anything positive. I think by virtue of being a calm head, especially in moments with bad results, double-digit injury lists, rumors about key players sold for FFP, while being steadier and stronger than a Potter, has been a positive for the situation the club is in (or been put in by top management & ownership).

Won't quote the whole post, but this is bang on the money.  Agree with every word. 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Sabrina F. said:

Nothing about this squad, and frankly about the club right now, screams ready for immediate success. So I'm mostly grateful for Pochettino's "I have seen it all" experience right now, I imagine this is much closer to the club situation he's lived through at Espanyol when he started out than any other environment in his career.

I'd call it simply disinterested.  But I agree it doesn't make a lot of difference now.

I'm much more positive about the quality of the players we have than the prospects of the club.
For example I am sure that Gallagher, if he leaves, we be a huge success.
We had some fantastic players, a lot of them, like Rudiger and Havertz are now doing really well.

[Thiago97]

24 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

I'd call it simply disinterested.  But I agree it doesn't make a lot of difference now.

I'm much more positive about the quality of the players we have than the prospects of the club.
For example I am sure that Gallagher, if he leaves, we be a huge success.
We had some fantastic players, a lot of them, like Rudiger and Havertz are now doing really well.

I think you are stretching this a touch. I presume Rudiger is doing well, but I don't really see Madrid play to know this. However, if he is playing regularly, and in a top side , then that's fine.

I don't think we can say Havertz is doing really well. Most Arsenal fans are far from convinced on him, he looks very similar to what he did in his time here. Some decent games, some nothing performances. Kovacic is a squad option. Jorginho cannot get any significant game time, as that was a shot to nothing in terms of what he cost, and it failed. Mount has been a disaster with injuries and form. The lads out in Saudi may be doing alright, I don't really know, nor does it have any relevance really.

Then the likes of Werner has outstayed his welcome at Leipzeig due to his lack of general ability, as that club has many far better options.

Very few that have left in the last 2-3 years have gone on to do really well.

 

[Sabrina F.]

47 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

I'd call it simply disinterested.  But I agree it doesn't make a lot of difference now.

I'm much more positive about the quality of the players we have than the prospects of the club.
For example I am sure that Gallagher, if he leaves, we be a huge success.
We had some fantastic players, a lot of them, like Rudiger and Havertz are now doing really well.

I wouldn't say Havertz is doing really well. Thinking Kai is an 8 is utter stupidity on the part of Arteta, he played as an 8 with Lampard and that was a disaster. He's a 2nd striker, a shadow striker, a false 9, a Raumdeuter, whatever that's called. He needs to be close to the box, is what Tuchel first said when he arrived and he was right. His best spell of his career came when paired with Werner making runs allowing to drop deep but not too deep. Arteta trying to make him make a CM whe he can't really dribble or pass his way out of those crowded areas, has hampered their fluid attacking.

Nonetheless, he did leave for a better situation. Rudiger did too, Mount thought he did and so on. Most of them were right, even if they're not playing individually great football, they're probably more than happy to contribute to winning teams. Winning, as in most sports, makes everything easier and more enjoyable.

I do not think we're doomed, so I'm probably less negative than you are. Turnarounds can be incredibly fast in football, sometimes your goalkeeper and striker go on a mad run - see Spurs with Vicario saving the most goals this season and Son outperforming xG like in his prime years and that's enough to get them at 5th. 

But I do think it will take time, and taking time doesn't exactly suit the big spending spree. ROI in football is rarely a matter of decade/years, it's months and 2-3 seasons. 

I can see a fix: send Ugochukwu & the likes to the 2 years loan plan that worked so well for us in the past (Christensen, Mount, Colwill), only keep the players ready to contribute now, supplement them with quality over quantity and with 24-28 years old instead of U23 players. There wouldn't need be to be many - a top coach would love to coach Colwill, Enzo, Caicedo, Nkunku, heck probably even Jackson, Palmer, Sterling - they just don't want to have to coach them *and* coach Ugochukwu, Broja, Deivid Washington and about a dozen others that need youth coaches, not PL coaches.

Edited January 3 by Sabrina F.

[boratsbrother]

38 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

I'd call it simply disinterested.  But I agree it doesn't make a lot of difference now.

I'm much more positive about the quality of the players we have than the prospects of the club.
For example I am sure that Gallagher, if he leaves, we be a huge success.
We had some fantastic players, a lot of them, like Rudiger and Havertz are now doing really well.

Ludicrous to say Havertz is doing really well!

He's scored 4 league goals playing in a much better team than the one he left yet he's only on course to score roughly the same amount as he usually scored for us. 

Palmer is already a vastly superior player and I also  think Mudryk will become a much better player than Havertz too. 

I'll alwaya be grateful for the CL goal Havertz scored but not at all sorry we sold him and got most of our money back.

 

 

[Rob B]

52 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

I'd call it simply disinterested.  But I agree it doesn't make a lot of difference now.

I'm much more positive about the quality of the players we have than the prospects of the club.
For example I am sure that Gallagher, if he leaves, we be a huge success.
We had some fantastic players, a lot of them, like Rudiger and Havertz are now doing really well.

Agree on Gallagher - we'd be mad to sell him. 

Disagree on the last sentence though.  As a collective, most are really struggling to be honest. 

Pulisic and RLC are doing fine in Italy as you'd expect and without checking I'm sure the Saudi crew are playing every week.  But Ziyech is not getting a game in Turkey and reports he's going to have his loan terminated, Werner can't get in the RBL team and is apparently up for sale,  Kepa has been displaced by the number 3 GK at Madrid (albeit think this might be linked to an injury, we'll have to see), Kovacic and Jorginho don't play, Mount either hasn't featured or hasn't performed when he has, and Havertz has accumulated more yellow cards than goals/assists. 

Stating the obvious, but the issue wasn't really selling any of these (although I was annoyed with Mount going) but it was the profile of player we chose to replace them. 

[Dwmh]

30 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I think you are stretching this a touch. I presume Rudiger is doing well, but I don't really see Madrid play to know this. However, if he is playing regularly, and in a top side , then that's fine.

I don't think we can say Havertz is doing really well. Most Arsenal fans are far from convinced on him, he looks very similar to what he did in his time here. Some decent games, some nothing performances. Kovacic is a squad option. Jorginho cannot get any significant game time, as that was a shot to nothing in terms of what he cost, and it failed. Mount has been a disaster with injuries and form. The lads out in Saudi may be doing alright, I don't really know, nor does it have any relevance really.

Then the likes of Werner has outstayed his welcome at Leipzeig due to his lack of general ability, as that club has many far better options.

Very few that have left in the last 2-3 years have gone on to do really well.

 

Havertz has done really well in last 6 weeks.
All the players are doing really well in Italy, none of them were starters here except Lukaku (who infact has only had 17 PL career starts for us - so far!)
Kovacic was largely a squad option for us, albeit it one that played whenever Jorginho or Kante were out or rested, or whenever Lampard or Sarri got fed up with playing Barkley or RLC at 8.  He never had a consistent role with us.

Werner (and Ziyech) are very much the exceptions.  
Rudiger has started 17/18 La Liga games and all 6 CL games for RM
Christensen has started 14 La Liga games this season and 22 last season (his best chelsea season was 17/18 with 23 PL starts)
Even Alonso starts more now at Barca than with us and he is 33.

I can only assume people have written off these CL winners because they wrote them off last season.
Or because they thought top teams have squads of 21 and 22 yos that they play all the time rather than packing most of them off on loan and playing mostly players with a lot of experience.

The old Chelsea is doing fine.  So are Sarri and TT  (and JM and CA but not so much Conte anymore)
 

[Dwmh]

19 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Pulisic and RLC are doing fine in Italy as you'd expect

But they really struggled to get games here.  Even in last year's struggling team.  See other comments above.
It was bascially a top 4 team of top 4 players.

16 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Stating the obvious, but the issue wasn't really selling any of these (although I was annoyed with Mount going) but it was the profile of player we chose to replace them. 

Well they were the profile of player we should have kept Kovacic and Azpi more stereotypically of all.
 

44 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

Nonetheless, [Havertz]he did leave for a better situation. Rudiger did too, Mount thought he did and so on. Most of them were right, even if they're not playing individually great football, they're probably more than happy to contribute to winning teams. Winning, as in most sports, makes everything easier and more enjoyable.

I do not think we're doomed, so I'm probably less negative than you are. Turnarounds can be incredibly fast in football, sometimes your goalkeeper and striker go on a mad run - see Spurs with Vicario saving the most goals this season and Son outperforming xG like in his prime years and that's enough to get them at 5th. 

But I do think it will take time, and taking time doesn't exactly suit the big spending spree. ROI in football is rarely a matter of decade/years, it's months and 2-3 seasons. 

I can see a fix: send Ugochukwu & the likes to the 2 years loan plan that worked so well for us in the past (Christensen, Mount, Colwill), only keep the players ready to contribute now, supplement them with quality over quantity and with 24-28 years old instead of U23 players. There wouldn't need be to be many - a top coach would love to coach Colwill, Enzo, Caicedo, Nkunku, heck probably even Jackson, Palmer, Sterling - they just don't want to have to coach them *and* coach Ugochukwu, Broja, Deivid Washington and about a dozen others that need youth coaches, not PL coaches.

They ran.  This idea that the club chose to sell them is slightly misleading.  The club created conditions where almost all the senior players (who were fit enough) ran for contracts elsewhere.  (Chilwell, James  and Silva stayed, we can guess why.  Gallagher never played under RA, he made his debut last season.  But I won't be surprised if a few of those go soon too.  Actually I will be pleased for them.)

Certainly we are seeing 10 game runs with other clubs with Brighton then Spurs and other clubs looking amazing for a while.  Spurs's collapse was predicted by me and others on here when we looked at just who they beat in the first 10 games and who they had yet to play.  Arsenal and Liverpool are "reverting to mean" current and so may City.  

But Chelsea has been on an 18 month run of very consistent ordinariness with possession and chance dominance but a failure to convert chances into goals, conceding easily, and just missing that bit of determination / game management to take or keep the points in the last 15 mins.

[We broke the trend in the last 2 games.  Palace was domination, underscoring but being gifted an 89 min unnecessary penalty to win.  Luton outplayed us in all respects , but our finishing was quite quite exceptional.  Was conceding 2 and not 3 in last 11+10 = 21 mins evidence of a new hardness or old softness?  Plenty think this means we have turned the corner.  I just think we beat teams a 10th placed team should have beaten  and nothing has changed.]

I think that long before we really turn the corner a lot of the newer players will want out.
When Fernandez (who is clearly a class player based on last year) wants out it will be a serious threat to the whole 8 year contract idea.  Not the FFP game.  The Slave Contract part.  

I agree with the fix.  It amounts to recognising that the current policy of removing experience from the bench has been disastrous.  But sitting players like Pulisic and Christensen and Kovacic and Azpi on the bench is expensive.  That is why they end up at big clubs like  AC Milan, Barca, City, AM.  
They'll be expensive to buy too, especially mid-season.
The fix amounts to changing the owners plan (and probaly the owners or at least the management structure).

I reckon :

1.  there isn't the funding with FFP to pay for it (they can call the bluff of FFP though)
2.  There isn't the good will from end investors to permit a change of plan midstream
3.  A change of plan takes us from a 2 year project to a 5-8 year project.

The owners look for 30% returns on their investments.  Turning a 2 year project into an 8 year project means they need to turn $2bn into $15bn instead of into $4bn.  In practice if they admit their mistakes, then the only smart move it to quit and run in the hope they can get $1bn back.  That will be very unpleasant.  They either sell to an asset stripper or do the dirty work themselves.

In other words it is too late already.

No wonder many are hoping that conceding 2 goals at the Luton game is light at the end of the tunnel - proof that we are toughening up rather than evidence of a train coming in the opposite direction.

 

1 hour ago, Sabrina F. said:

I wouldn't say Havertz is doing really well. Thinking Kai is an 8 is utter stupidity on the part of Arteta, he played as an 8 with Lampard and that was a disaster. He's a 2nd striker, a shadow striker, a false 9, a Raumdeuter, whatever that's called. He needs to be close to the box, is what Tuchel first said when he arrived and he was right. His best spell of his career came when paired with Werner making runs allowing to drop deep but not too deep. Arteta trying to make him make a CM whe he can't really dribble or pass his way out of those crowded areas, has hampered their fluid attacking.

No, last 6 weeks he seems to be doing very well, starting and scoring.
You seem to be describing him as a 10.  There really is little difference between 8&10, especially if you have Rice sitting behind you.

[east lower]

Really interesting perspectives put forward by @xceleryx and @Sabrina F., I enjoyed reading and mulling over the points made by both.

II completely 'get' the 2-year contract, at the time they gave him the job I commented on how much faith does that demonstrate the owners have in this coach, especially considering they gave Potter a 5-year deal - Maybe an expensive lesson learned and maybe, and if I had faith that the owners knew what they were doing (which I don't and this will have presented any coach with difficulties) then Pochettino could have been viewed as our Pelligrini who was installed whilst waiting for their long-term target to be available.

However, our coach stated that he thought we would make the top-four - that was his target and he's way off that. He knew the players he had at that time and had seen them for long enough to make his initial assessments. He played with a flair and a flow in one game, the first home game against Liverpool and then decided to shut-up shop, or at least try too but he's not good enough to set us up that way.

He set his own and the fans (albeit a good few will have seen 5 or 6 games in we're not good enough) expectations by his statement about top four.  If he wants different types of players to achieve some short-term goals whilst focussing on longer term with other coaches he will have at his disposal, then he should absolutely insist on them and if they don't appear - walk away and say why you've done so. But very few of them do, as it hurts them in the pocket, not that any of his like need to work again.

I used Fernandez and Caicedo as examples as they are generally two of the higher profile examples. Has he improved any of the other defenders, he shackled James and didn't know when to get Chilwell off the pitch - twice. He's a tactical nightmare, more often than not  his substitutions have a negative effect. I don't necessarily believe he's a safe pair of hands for those tactical reasons - professional footballers, even the young ones will see through that.

It's not all his fault, but the poor coaching, lack of a style or distinct patterns of play, results generally are in my view and even if they are not, the owners won't take responsibility. He may have been one of the best available but that doesn't mean you have to take him.

Lastly xG - We are second in that list/league? Counts for nowt as the Luton game proved, just like possession stats - If you've not got the coaching right and strikers in particular lose confidence you're lost. Jackson being a prime example, looked almost deadly in pre-season then got Pocherttinoed and looks half the finisher.

 

[Sabrina F.]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

But they really struggled to get games here.  Even in last year's struggling team.  See other comments above.
It was bascially a top 4 team of top 4 players.

Well they were the profile of player we should have kept Kovacic and Azpi more stereotypically of all.
 

They ran.  This idea that the club chose to sell them is slightly misleading.  The club created conditions where almost all the senior players (who were fit enough) ran for contracts elsewhere.  (Chilwell, James  and Silva stayed, we can guess why.  Gallagher never played under RA, he made his debut last season.  But I won't be surprised if a few of those go soon too.  Actually I will be pleased for them.)

Certainly we are seeing 10 game runs with other clubs with Brighton then Spurs and other clubs looking amazing for a while.  Spurs's collapse was predicted by me and others on here when we looked at just who they beat in the first 10 games and who they had yet to play.  Arsenal and Liverpool are "reverting to mean" current and so may City.  

But Chelsea has been on an 18 month run of very consistent ordinariness with possession and chance dominance but a failure to convert chances into goals, conceding easily, and just missing that bit of determination / game management to take or keep the points in the last 15 mins.

[We broke the trend in the last 2 games.  Palace was domination, underscoring but being gifted an 89 min unnecessary penalty to win.  Luton outplayed us in all respects , but our finishing was quite quite exceptional.  Was conceding 2 and not 3 in last 11+10 = 21 mins evidence of a new hardness or old softness?  Plenty think this means we have turned the corner.  I just think we beat teams a 10th placed team should have beaten  and nothing has changed.]

I think that long before we really turn the corner a lot of the newer players will want out.
When Fernandez (who is clearly a class player based on last year) wants out it will be a serious threat to the whole 8 year contract idea.  Not the FFP game.  The Slave Contract part.  

I agree with the fix.  It amounts to recognising that the current policy of removing experience from the bench has been disastrous.  But sitting players like Pulisic and Christensen and Kovacic and Azpi on the bench is expensive.  That is why they end up at big clubs like  AC Milan, Barca, City, AM.  
They'll be expensive to buy too, especially mid-season.
The fix amounts to changing the owners plan (and probaly the owners or at least the management structure).

I reckon :

1.  there isn't the funding with FFP to pay for it (they can call the bluff of FFP though)
2.  There isn't the good will from end investors to permit a change of plan midstream
3.  A change of plan takes us from a 2 year project to a 5-8 year project.

The owners look for 30% returns on their investments.  Turning a 2 year project into an 8 year project means they need to turn $2bn into $15bn instead of into $4bn.  In practice if they admit their mistakes, then the only smart move it to quit and run in the hope they can get $1bn back.  That will be very unpleasant.  They either sell to an asset stripper or do the dirty work themselves.

In other words it is too late already.

No wonder many are hoping that conceding 2 goals at the Luton game is light at the end of the tunnel - proof that we are toughening up rather than evidence of a train coming in the opposite direction.

 

No, last 6 weeks he seems to be doing very well, starting and scoring.
You seem to be describing him as a 10.  There really is little difference between 8&10, especially if you have Rice sitting behind you.

I don’t argue they pushed to leave, it was pretty evident since around February & March that they wanted out. They just saw their replacements bought over the winter, and yes, most likely knew the thing they came to Chelsea for—winning titles—was no longer on the table.

 

I have personally made peace with that, because we were very lucky with Roman, and the likelihood of that success (especially the way it was achieved, with this sort of "creative tension" present at all times) carrying over was small. Even with good, sensible ownership etc etc. The reality was that the title is an illusion with Pep & Haaland at City, that Klopp still had juice at Liverpool, that Arsenal hit on a summer or two and have a fantastic young team and well, Newcastle were coming, one way or another. Even Spurs now have Top 4 levels of generated revenues. Villa can spend, Brighton & Brentford have moneyballed the sport.

 

So my expectations weren’t low, but maybe lower than most in the first place. It’s obviously been much, much worse than anyone could have predicted, and the moment they reappointed Lampard it was clear that they had no idea how to manage a football club, especially in times of crisis.

So yes, right now the odds are this will all lead to a failure, and another mediocre season will have consequences not on the squad/coach anymore but the ownership itself. Who knows, if we’re a more distressed asset than in 2022 and become valued to just 1B, an Eliott Group or something sees the opportunity of doing an AC Milan. 

I am well prepared for tough years and agree with you it’s best that everyone is prepared. We all have seen enough success than we should handle it.

Maybe I’m making the mistake of isolating the tree from the forest, evaluating Pochettino’s team without the noise. I think he’s done more good than bad overall. 
 

No, I don’t think Luton is a turnaround, couple of easy fixtures and we took the points needed to get back into the hunt. That’s it.

The trend is more that we’re now a decent attacking side but a bad defensive team.

3rd best attack, 3rd worst defense over the last 10 games. Luton tends to be in line with that.

 

So, we’re simultaneously not that far off, of your 5th-6th place teams (and maybe if Nkunku hits the ground running and Petrovic makes a few saves, not that far off 4th place but best case scenarios have tended not to happen for the last 2 years), and still very far off because of the club’s situation: who we might lose both because of injury or wanting out, who we might add that takes up a squad spot but doesn’t contribute (Andrey Santos is back, another headache for Poch) and so on. 
 

I’m new on here (lost my previous account which was active very briefly in 2021), and I will most likely be conflicted as long as it’s like this. It is very conflicting still, my expectations are in check, but I also watch us and watch other teams above and there’s little to no talent disparity, just the realization that we do actively self-sabotage.

 

(I disagree about Arsenal, Rice was an upgrade defensively but they have fallen off offensively - Rice doesn’t control possession as it should be like Partey or Jorginho do, while Havertz is better inside the box, he’s playing the Xhaka role, doing it much much worse, nonexistent passing or creativity or ball progression, all the stats back this).

[Dwmh]

35 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

So my expectations weren’t low, but maybe lower than most in the first place. It’s obviously been much, much worse than anyone could have predicted, and the moment they reappointed Lampard it was clear that they had no idea how to manage a football club, especially in times of crisis.

Indeed, and hadn't learnt absolutely nothing from the players and staff who were here before.

 

35 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

I am well prepared for tough years and agree with you it’s best that everyone is prepared. We all have seen enough success than we should handle it.

Indeed.

35 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

The trend is more that we’re now a decent attacking side but a bad defensive team.

[graph cut]
3rd best attack, 3rd worst defense over the last 10 games. Luton tends to be in line with that.

Yes - and nice graph.  Several contributory reasons:  the opponents in last 10 games and Spurs & City game in particular where ordinarily strong opponents took huge risks against us.  And probably a Poch change of emphasis after the first 10 games where we both scored and conceded fewer.
But I agree, defence is the main issue now.  Particularly I suspect (don't have the chart to prove it) defence in the last 20 mins.
JM may have been the first, but it is now standard for teams to play not to lose for 60 mins and then raise the stakes with well prepared tactics to make goals much more likely to happen.  We neither seem to be ready when suddenly oppo FBs overload our FBs, nor prepared with counter attack tactics after playing 65% possession football for so long.

35 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

who we might add that takes up a squad spot but doesn’t contribute (Andrey Santos is back, another headache for Poch) and so on. 

We only have 20 over 21s registered, 4 are keepers, Fofana seems out for the season and several others have been out a lot.  [It is not so much we have replaced experienced pros aged 30 with 22 yos.  We just haven't replaced them at all.  This is very 2015/16 when we had just 19 o21s including 3 GKs and 3 crocked strikers but a super experienced self-picking core 11 + Ramires.)

I'm not sure what scope that gives us with club/FA trained players, and I guess a few of our U21s are having to take O21 places (List B/List A??)

35 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

(I disagree about Arsenal, Rice was an upgrade defensively but they have fallen off offensively - Rice doesn’t control possession as it should be like Partey or Jorginho do, while Havertz is better inside the box, he’s playing the Xhaka role, doing it much much worse, nonexistent passing or creativity or ball progression, all the stats back this).

I'll take your word for that - I avoid watching too much non-Chelsea football - life is too short.  But he has gone from being sub to regular starter and has got goals recently.  Something must thing he is doing well.

35 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

I’m new on here (lost my previous account which was active very briefly in 2021),

I'm sure they will let you change your name back, though Jane would probably be relieved to not be the only person using a girls name.
You didn't lose your old account, everyone lost the old site and a new one was set up for which we are all greatful.

Edited January 3 by Dwmh

[My Blood Is Blue]

@Sabrina F. welcome to the 'new' CFCnet forum, some brilliant first posts that I've thoroughly enjoyed reading, thank you!

 

[boratsbrother]

12 hours ago, kev61 said:

We've had  people saying ''we miss Nkunku '' -   ''if only we had Chilwell and James back'' everything would magically  change.

I admit we have been unlucky with injuries and I said I don't totally blame Poch - however the Luton game proved to me he is a poor coach.

We almost didn't get a result because he let the Luton left side run amok.

He sits on the sideline passionless and befuddled - a real inspiration to wealthy kids my arse.There has to be a huge change of direction by the owners.

Sack Poch,Bohley and the rest of the policy makers...it has FAILED!!.

 

Instead of slagging off  our team wouldn't it be better to give some credit to the Luton players for coming back into the game?  It would have been easy for them to have completely crumbled and gone on to lose by 5 or 6, instead they fought like a pack of mad Tigers. They were a credit to themselves and their club, so it's no wonder their manager and fans were proud of them. Also must be added that they've given better teams than us a real battle this season.

 

As for the owners and Poch. 

Everyone accepts TB & co made some big mistakes and that Poch isn't a top class manager. However, only those with a grudge will refuse to admit there are not some positive signs starting to emerge now.  Instead of complaining about how bad everything is, how about accepting there's a big job ahead and start getting behind this young set of players and for once give our manager the time needed to improve these young players. Man Utd have been showing for a decade that changing managers all the time gets you nowhere fast.

 

[JaneB]

Hi @Sabrina F. Welcome back to our new site.

Out of interest, what was your username on the old site in 2021?  

Obviously you don't have to tell me as it's your private information, but I'm always interested to know how many of our 'old' members have found their way back to this site 🙂 

[Sabrina F.]

3 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Indeed, and hadn't learnt absolutely nothing from the players and staff who were here before.

 

Indeed.

Yes - and nice graph.  Several contributory reasons:  the opponents in last 10 games and Spurs & City game in particular where ordinarily strong opponents took huge risks against us.  And probably a Poch change of emphasis after the first 10 games where we both scored and conceded fewer.
But I agree, defence is the main issue now.  Particularly I suspect (don't have the chart to prove it) defence in the last 20 mins.
JM may have been the first, but it is now standard for teams to play not to lose for 60 mins and then raise the stakes with well prepared tactics to make goals much more likely to happen.  We neither seem to be ready when suddenly oppo FBs overload our FBs, nor prepared with counter attack tactics after playing 65% possession football for so long.

We only have 20 over 21s registered, 4 are keepers, Fofana seems out for the season and several others have been out a lot.  [It is not so much we have replaced experienced pros aged 30 with 22 yos.  We just haven't replaced them at all.  This is very 2015/16 when we had just 19 o21s including 3 GKs and 3 crocked strikers but a super experienced self-picking core 11 + Ramires.)

I'm not sure what scope that gives us with club/FA trained players, and I guess a few of our U21s are having to take O21 places (List B/List A??)

I'll take your word for that - I avoid watching too much non-Chelsea football - life is too short.  But he has gone from being sub to regular starter and has got goals recently.  Something must thing he is doing well.

I'm sure they will let you change your name back, though Jane would probably be relieved to not be the only person using a girls name.
You didn't lose your old account, everyone lost the old site and a new one was set up for which we are all greatful.

Well, a lot of them were on the PL U21 list, but it will be interesting how it’s handled once a few players are no longer eligible and aren’t considered HG either. 
 

Still, like you said, a lot of players last summer weren’t replaced. In all fairness, it was a gigantic squad after last January.

 

About teams waiting for the last 15-20 minutes, I think it’s fairly routine now. Hold tight to the 0-0 or 0-1 then push up numbers as teams tend to tire and drop their intensity. If you’re 3-0 down, still nothing to lose by doing so, a goal lifts up your team for the next game, 2 goals and you’re right back in it.

 

Yes, Pochettino has been particularly abject coaching 2nd halves. We tend to forget he was the coach in the Battle of the Bridge, and Spurs played a fantastic first half before disappearing entirely in the 2nd half in that game. PSG also was extremely competitive in 1st halves in the CL: the Real Madrid comeback of course, but also the semi-final vs City in 2021 - PSG dominated the first half in Paris like very few did to City that year (TT would go on to play them quite similarly in the CL final, but sustained at least 65-70 minutes thankfully).

I didn’t notice this was a whole new website, I guess the design and all was similar enough I didn’t question it.

and yes, it’s a girl’s name because I am a woman and I’m not very imaginative on the internet anymore.

1 hour ago, JaneB said:

Hi @Sabrina F. Welcome back to our new site.

Out of interest, what was your username on the old site in 2021?  

Obviously you don't have to tell me as it's your private information, but I'm always interested to know how many of our 'old' members have found their way back to this site 🙂 

I *think* it was SabCFC - not very different. And I grew up reading CFCnet before Twitter, just done so anonymously (I was mostly french speaking in the 2005-2010 era so stuck to reading, I was on a popular CFC/French board). 
 

I didn’t notice this was a new website, feels quite familiar so I think it means it was a job well done!

[Dwmh]

7 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

About teams waiting for the last 15-20 minutes, I think it’s fairly routine now. Hold tight to the 0-0 or 0-1 then push up numbers as teams tend to tire and drop their intensity. If you’re 3-0 down, still nothing to lose by doing so, a goal lifts up your team for the next game, 2 goals and you’re right back in it.

 

If you leave it late enough then there is little or no threat from a counter attack except against very good teams.

8 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

We tend to forget he was the coach in the Battle of the Bridge,

We should never call it Battle - that suggests it was a one-sided fight.  It was all Spurs and if I recall right only Mikel got booked for a foul, all our other yellows were for protesting to the referee.  "Battle" is a coverup of a one-sided kick-in.
It also protects Clattenberg for failure to protect during a live TV match watched by amateurs and schoolkids who get their ideas of football from what they see on TV.

But no I will never forget.  Quite staggered at how many have though.

[Ham]

2 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

@Sabrina F.enjoyed welcome to the 'new' CFCnet forum, some brilliant first posts that I've thoroughly enjoyed reading, thank you!

 

Absolutely. Great contributions today 

@Sabrina F. Welcome back, even though it's actually CFCNet 2.0.

[Ham]

The contribution of Jackson here has been criminally overlooked.... Insanely good work. 

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