Official: Chelsea sign Enzo Fernandez on an Eight and a Half Year Contract

[Bob Singleton]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

Have you looked at his stats 2 assists in 24 game, not really outstanding stats...

[SNIP]

 

The thing about such stats is that they take no account of the ability of the player attempting to convert a chance into a goal.  Better finishers around a creator will see an increase in that player's assist stats. Best to use your eyes, too, rather than just stats.

[Mark Kelly]

Enzo is a problem we just don't have.

Lets tackle the problems we do.

[Bob Singleton]

15 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Hello Bob,

Welcome back and thank you for the kind comments towards me.

I can only deduce from your comments after the club has spending 1 billion on recruitment the strike force recruited is poop.

With you being such a literary person, maybe you should share your thoughts with Eggy's & Todd (ET)

Toodles-pip

22 of those 24 games you point to had Havertz, Mount, Ziyech, etc playing around him, none of whom are here now. He was also deployed far deeper as a DM. Time to use your eyes rather than relying on stats alone. Mind you, given your métier, I'm not surprised how you treat evidence. Good bye.

[Bob Singleton]

2 hours ago, ROTG said:

 Dear Bob. 
Have you been on the sherry with Mavis and Rita again?

In answer to your eyes snipe, I was fully aligned with those members on here who stated the new era of Chelsea recruitment was based on data and statistics, however you do not seem to be of the same mould IMO this is another opportunity for you to write to Eggy’s and Todd (ET) with regards to data analysis and statistics recruitment and how it’s really done with eye’s  

You opinion seem very much aligned to Clint’s film the trouble with the curve 

Toodle-pip  

 

Maybe one day you'll write something in English.

[RDCW]

52 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

Maybe one day you'll write something in English.

Regardless of the provocation, that's not the way we behave on here Bob.

[RDCW]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

 Dear Bob. 
Have you been on the sherry with Mavis and Rita again?

In answer to your eyes snipe, I was fully aligned with those members on here who stated the new era of Chelsea recruitment was based on data and statistics, however you do not seem to be of the same mould IMO this is another opportunity for you to write to Eggy’s and Todd (ET) with regards to data analysis and statistics recruitment and how it’s really done with eye’s  

You opinion seem very much aligned to Clint’s film the trouble with the curve 

Toodle-pip  

 

This is just dull, provocative nonsense and contributes nothing to the sum of human happiness or knowledge. What is the point?

[My Blood Is Blue]

@ROTG and @Bob Singleton stop winding each other up and either debate properly or just don't do it at all, at least not on an open topic, say what you want to each other on DMs.

[boratsbrother]

On 21/08/2023 at 19:50, Blue_in_TX said:

Not Special 

 

Is it me or is Enzo Fernandez all hype.  The guy is a younger Gorginho.  For the money we paid, he can't even run past anyone and plays very basic passes.  Rarely does he play a ball on the ground that splits the lines.   Maybe I am overreacting to the Hammers game but no way is he athletic enough to function in a two man midfield.  

 

We played 4-2-3-1 all preseason and now we have 7 defending outfield players. 

 

There's two others  on here who pretty much agree with you. On a neutral football forum I visit he splits opinion with some rating him very highly and others saying he's bang average.

For the money we paid for him we should be expecting  the kind of impact VVD and Alison had on the Liverpool team. It was huge and instant and those players were every penny they paid for them. Enzo has had a tiny fraction of that kind of impact, if any impact at all. Defensively, our midfield can still be demolished in a second, even by the likes of a very average West Ham, team,  and up front we are still lacking creativity and goals.Of course, I'm not putting all the blame on Enzo, but he is part of our problems as much as the rest of them.

Neat and tidy on the ball and with the occasional quality pass. That was pretty much it on Sunday, as it has been since he joined us. Imho, he's a decent £50 million level player who'd be pretty good in a midfield if he had a very fast defensive player behind him and a genuinely creative and goal scoring midfielder along side him. As it is, he's stuck in a horribly unbalanced midfield and it's not doing him any favours at all.

 

 

 

[Blue_in_TX]

23 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

There's two others  on here who pretty much agree with you. On a neutral football forum I visit he splits opinion with some rating him very highly and others saying he's bang average.

For the money we paid for him we should be expecting  the kind of impact VVD and Alison had on the Liverpool team. It was huge and instant and those players were every penny they paid for them. Enzo has had a tiny fraction of that kind of impact, if any impact at all. Defensively, our midfield can still be demolished in a second, even by the likes of a very average West Ham, team,  and up front we are still lacking creativity and goals.Of course, I'm not putting all the blame on Enzo, but he is part of our problems as much as the rest of them.

Neat and tidy on the ball and with the occasional quality pass. That was pretty much it on Sunday, as it has been since he joined us. Imho, he's a decent £50 million level player who'd be pretty good in a midfield if he had a very fast defensive player behind him and a genuinely creative and goal scoring midfielder along side him. As it is, he's stuck in a horribly unbalanced midfield and it's not doing him any favours at all.

 

 

 

Much appreciated

[xceleryx]

On 23/08/2023 at 06:25, boratsbrother said:

There's two others  on here who pretty much agree with you. On a neutral football forum I visit he splits opinion with some rating him very highly and others saying he's bang average.

For the money we paid for him we should be expecting  the kind of impact VVD and Alison had on the Liverpool team. It was huge and instant and those players were every penny they paid for them. Enzo has had a tiny fraction of that kind of impact, if any impact at all. Defensively, our midfield can still be demolished in a second, even by the likes of a very average West Ham, team,  and up front we are still lacking creativity and goals.Of course, I'm not putting all the blame on Enzo, but he is part of our problems as much as the rest of them.

Neat and tidy on the ball and with the occasional quality pass. That was pretty much it on Sunday, as it has been since he joined us. Imho, he's a decent £50 million level player who'd be pretty good in a midfield if he had a very fast defensive player behind him and a genuinely creative and goal scoring midfielder along side him. As it is, he's stuck in a horribly unbalanced midfield and it's not doing him any favours at all.

Worth noting Enzo's value is only what it is because we paid his release clause, we did that because it was an opportune moment that either we take advantage of now or likely miss out on such a player altogether. We were obviously poorly positioned in the league and unlikely to quality for Europe. Enzo had drawn plaudits after a strong World Cup in a winning Argentine side, and ownership were looking to take advantage of a few loopholes that were going to be closed moving forward. While yes, we paid more than he was probably worth for a player of his ilk, the alternative however was seeing him likely end up at one of the other top clubs around Europe or domestically in the summer when we simply would've have been able to compete for his signature. 

A player like Enzo is either someone that people either get and appreciate or they don't, it's that simple. Similar in ways to others like Jorginho, Kroos or going back further with players like Riquelme or Veron (during his Serie A days). They aren't athletically gifted specimens who have exciting all-action play styles, instead they're intelligent players that are calculated, technically strong, and excel using their brain with the ability to play the game at their own pace. They make their sides better through their calmness, poise, efficiency - aspects that a lot of fans look beyond and take for granted.

Since arriving Enzo has been one of the premier performers, not just for us but also league wide. This is backed up through an array of metics where he literally sits amongst the elite percentiles, despite having to play a deeper more defensive role last season that stifled some of his game. All of which came in a side that was woefully out of sorts and inept in a multitude of areas. His passing game for instance is outrageously efficient across short, medium and long ranges. Despite a defensive role last season he still sat in the 99th percentile for passes into the final third, I mean he was literally the top player in the Premier League for this despite only playing half a season. It's the same story for progressive passes. 86th percentile for shot-creating actions, and so on. Even defensively he was solid despite it not being his bread and butter.

Sure, he has his weaknesses like virtually every other player, and he could do more in terms of being a goal threat directly, but that's not necessarily his role in the side or purpose either. We'll hopefully see a bit more of it than we did last season purely because of the greater freedom to get forward reflecting more how he played at Benfica, but it's also not the end of the world if he's only a 5 goals a season or so midfielder. What he provides goes well and truly beyond simplistic goal and assist numbers. 

To critique him as a £50m level player is simply outrageous, considering what £50m gets you in this day and age.

[boratsbrother]

9 hours ago, xceleryx said:

 

To critique him as a £50m level player is simply outrageous, considering what £50m gets you in this day and age.

I was talking about the prices at the time we bought him. Even in that relatively short period of time the fees have gone through the roof resulting in us paying a joke of a price for a lmited player like Caisedo.

[paulw66]

Enzo is a world class footballer, and for those who can't see it, I can't help you. 

 

[ROTG]

43 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Enzo is a world class footballer, and for those who can't see it, I can't help you. 

 

Then explain 2 assists in 21 games in the PL and being on the winning team 4 times. Also when has he been a game changer?

He might well evolve into an excellent player even world class, however since his arrival at the club he’s not worth the money paid for him and quite average. 

Bit early for world class pedestal, sorry you can’t see that 

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by ROTG

[Thiago97]

49 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Then explain 2 assists in 21 games in the PL and being on the winning team 4 times. Also when has he been a game changer?

He might well evolve into an excellent player even world class, however since his arrival at the club he’s not worth the money paid for him and quite average. 

Bit early for world class pedestal, sorry you can’t see that 

 

It’s self explanatory. He walked into a dreadful team and set up with everything about the club on a low ebb, half way through a season in a completely new league to him.  He also played in a role sat in front of a back three with zero creativity, playing alongside some players who had clearly run their course at Chelsea, and were frankly not really that interested.

Why would you base any serious view of him off the back of what was effectively a pointless and horrible 4-5 months for everything at the club ? 
 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Thiago97

[boratsbrother]

44 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Then explain 2 assists in 21 games in the PL and being on the winning team 4 times. Also when has he been a game changer?

 

 

 

You point out the big issue - Where is the end product?

No goals and 2 assists from 21 games from a player who is supposed to creative His fans are blinded by his undoubted technical on the ball but ignoring the telling facts.. He is simply not producing anywhere near enough for the money we paid for him! 

I'd rather we had the less gifted but significantly more productive Madison in our midfield.

 

[ROTG]

27 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

It’s self explanatory. He walked into a dreadful team and set up with everything about the club on a low ebb, half way through a season in a completely new league to him.  He also played in a role sat in front of a back three with zero creativity, playing alongside some players who had clearly run their course at Chelsea, and were frankly not really that interested.

Why would you base any serious view of him off the back of what was effectively a pointless and horrible 4-5 months for everything at the club ? 
 

Quite happy to revisit this discussion at the half way point of the season, though I doubt three will be little change in assist and goal stats. 
 

Would be over the moon if I am wrong. On the positive side he’s has 8 years to become WC

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, ROTG said:

Quite happy to revisit this discussion at the half way point of the season, though I doubt three will be little change in assist and goal stats. 
 

Would be over the moon if I am wrong. On the positive side he’s has 8 years to become WC

Sensible option, especially since he's now being played as a proper number 8 and not a holding player. He's head and shoulders above anyone else we have in midfield as it is. 

[Thiago97]

1 minute ago, ROTG said:

Quite happy to revisit this discussion at the half way point of the season, though I doubt three will be little change in assist and goal stats. 
 

Would be over the moon if I am wrong. On the positive side he’s has 8 years to become WC

I can’t see that he won’t add goals and assists to his game by January. At the same time, whilst stats are a factor , they are also not the be all and end all. A player like William never really produced high number of goals and assists for the position he played, he was still a wonderful and important player for the club though. 
I meant assist stats are often a load of nonsense. A player can make a 5 yard square pass to another player who pings it in the top corner from 25 yards. That’s an assist……but we all know it isn’t ! 

[Mark Kelly]

9 minutes ago, Thiago97 said:

I can’t see that he won’t add goals and assists to his game by January. At the same time, whilst stats are a factor , they are also not the be all and end all. A player like William never really produced high number of goals and assists for the position he played, he was still a wonderful and important player for the club though. 
I meant assist stats are often a load of nonsense. A player can make a 5 yard square pass to another player who pings it in the top corner from 25 yards. That’s an assist……but we all know it isn’t ! 

Taking a corner that gets headed in is an assist too! Assists should really be classified as a pass that leads to a goal from open play. 

[boratsbrother]

Because of their chronic lack of creativity and goal threat,  most fans were crying our for us to replace Kova, Kante and Jorghino. Having done that we have gone and splurged 250 million on Enzo, Caisedo and Lavia. That is looking like a midfield which will be even less of a goal threat than the one we replaced and I can see it  causing us serious problems in our attempts to get back up there to challenge City.

[Mark Kelly]

3 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Because of their chronic lack of creativity and goal threat,  most fans were crying our for us to replace Kova, Kante and Jorghino. Having done that we have gone and splurged 250 million on Enzo, Caisedo and Lavia. That is looking like a midfield which will be even less of a goal threat than the one we replaced and I can see it  causing us serious problems in our attempts to get back up there to challenge City.

Yes. I said as much after the West Ham game. 

Maybe freeing Enzo and Gallagher off by having Caicedo there will help improve our goal tally but quite often against Luton, Gallagher found himself doing the holding. 

I'm sure once the players have more of a rapport things will improve massively. 

[martin1905]

Love a good stat argument and use them all the time to back up my own argument even though I know they are a load of bollox.

Enzo is rubbish, his stats say so.

Therefore

Lukaku is one of the top strikers in the world.

Here's a good stat for you though and I'm sure not many will but did you know Gylfi Sigurdsson, Kevin Nolan and Gary Speed are all among the top ten goalscoring midfielders in premier league history? Funny they don't often get mentioned in any discussion about the league's greatest ever midfielders.

Amazing what you can do with a stat, either way.

[ROTG]

14 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Here's a good stat for you though and I'm sure not many will but did you know Gylfi Sigurdsson, Kevin Nolan and Gary Speed are all among the top ten goalscoring midfielders in premier league history? Funny they don't often get mentioned in any discussion about the league's greatest ever midfielders.

2/3 of them never cost a kings ransom

in their debut seasons in the PL the returned the following 

Sigurdsson 7 assists in 18 games at Swansea

Nolan 8 assists in 33 games at Bolton

Speed (RIP) 8 assists in 26 games at Leeds

on the other hand

Cesc 2 assist in 33 games for the Arse. 
 

it’s a funny old game.  

[Ham]

3 hours ago, ROTG said:

Then explain 2 assists in 21 games in the PL and being on the winning team 4 times. Also when has he been a game changer?

He might well evolve into an excellent player even world class, however since his arrival at the club he’s not worth the money paid for him and quite average. 

Bit early for world class pedestal, sorry you can’t see that 

 

Use your eyes. Ignore the stats. 

If you don't think he's absolutely world class then you're watching football wrong. 

[ROTG]

2 minutes ago, Ham said:

Use your eyes. Ignore the stats. 

If you don't think he's absolutely world class then you're watching football wrong. 

Whatever,

I do use my eyes without rose the need of rose tinted glasses 

can you highlight something Enzo has done in the past 3 games which was a game changer? I will leave it to you if you want to respond 

Probably best to revisit at the halfway mark of the season. 
 

BTW: your statement about ignoring stats contradicts the way the club recruits players these days including the recruitment of Enzo.