Dwmh Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Just now, Ham said: Loss of our owner and the shutting down of our income streams for a start. For 3 months. Not all income streams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xceleryx Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 (edited) 14 hours ago, boratsbrother said: Fair points! However, for me the Enzo problem is exactly the same as the ones Jorginho 's. - their abilities do not compensate enough for their shortcomings as players. Enzo's serious lack of pace will always be a problem for us. He also isn't top notch as a defensive or creative player and problem which plagued us for years with Jorginho and Kova. If we're ever going to be a top team again we simply need more than what Enzo has to offer this team. Sadly though, I can see us waiting and waiting for years for us to accept this. Enzo's lack of pace isn't a problem 8/10 times, its only in those transitional phases that we get hit on the break after turning the ball over cheaply ourselves in which he isn't going to win a foot race to recover. However, that's also the point of having a balanced midfield unit with players like Caicedo and Gallagher who do and can. If the rest of our midfield was also slow then I'd agree more, but really it's only Enzo that legs a bit of leg speed and that's certainly manageable with appropriate partners and tactical structure. Will also have to disagree with Enzo not being top notch defensively or creatively. When he arrived last season and virtually played as a DM his defensive contribute was generally pretty solid on the provision he wasn't left on an island to where his lack of pace could be exploited more. Creatively he's also fine, as demonstrated by some of what I touched on earlier. Sure, he's not a Pirlo or a Fabregas, but he's certainly capable of having a positive impact. Watch the below and you can see the impact he has, the bigger issue tends to be that we don't make the most of the good positions he puts his team mates in. He could've had a hatful of assists this season already if others didn't fluff their lines. Edited January 13 by xceleryx 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east lower Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Genuine question - If you were offered a straight swap: Enzo for Douglas Luiz would you take it? I’d have a long hard look at that deal and a tricky decision for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Singleton Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 Found this interesting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 12 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said: Found this interesting I hate to be that guy but it's Pochettino not the players ( again) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelsea_Matt Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 5 hours ago, Mark Kelly said: I hate to be that guy but it's Pochettino not the players ( again) You don’t hate to be that guy at all, Mr K 🤣🤣🤣💜 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 21 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said: You don’t hate to be that guy at all, Mr K 🤣🤣🤣💜 I know. In fact in kinda revelling in it. Will be deliriously happy to be proven wrong though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 A very poor athlete. Can't stand anybody up defensively, can't keep up with anybody and his lateral movement is noticeably bad. He is just very easy to play against and makes everybody's life harder defensively as he's such a weak link. Old Trafford this season was equally bad in a game we were overrun in midfield and just couldn't compete. Good luck to the managers who will be tasked with trying to make this work for the next 8 years but I've seen enough now to accept Enzo is more of a problem than a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 17 minutes ago, Bison said: A very poor athlete. Can't stand anybody up defensively, can't keep up with anybody and his lateral movement is noticeably bad. He is just very easy to play against and makes everybody's life harder defensively as he's such a weak link. Old Trafford this season was equally bad in a game we were overrun in midfield and just couldn't compete. Good luck to the managers who will be tasked with trying to make this work for the next 8 years but I've seen enough now to accept Enzo is more of a problem than a solution. He did have a dreadful game I must agree 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Toni Rudiger absolutely awful under Lampard, a scapegoat by almost everyone on here. Proper manager and one of the best centre backs in the world. So, so, so many players have been poor under Pochettino and Potter last season. I really don't know why we are discussing players performances under the current manager. If ever there was a fan base that really should be able to see how important a manager is to individuals it is us yet we still want to pick on players. Make absolutely no mistake Pochettino is Potter/Lampard level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, martin1905 said: Toni Rudiger absolutely awful under Lampard, a scapegoat by almost everyone on here. Proper manager and one of the best centre backs in the world. So, so, so many players have been poor under Pochettino and Potter last season. I really don't know why we are discussing players performances under the current manager. If ever there was a fan base that really should be able to see how important a manager is to individuals it is us yet we still want to pick on players. Make absolutely no mistake Pochettino is Potter/Lampard level. New manager isn't going to make Enzo more mobile if we're being honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, Bison said: New manager isn't going to make Enzo more mobile if we're being honest. No but a decent coach would work on ways to minimise it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bison said: New manager isn't going to make Enzo more mobile if we're being honest. Same was said about Jorginho who much like Rudiger was an unfair scapegoat. Far too slow, far too immobile and a liability defensively. Man was pivotal in us winning the Champions league and Italy winning the Euros in the same year and came 3rd in the Ballon d'Or yet still got untold grief by Chelsea fans. You're a big fan of Caicedo, as am I yet he's been a shadow of himself, we've discussed it on here, could it not be the same reason Enzo isn't as good as he was previously, as in the coach? Edited February 27 by martin1905 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 On 27/02/2024 at 21:44, martin1905 said: Same was said about Jorginho who much like Rudiger was an unfair scapegoat. Far too slow, far too immobile and a liability defensively. Man was pivotal in us winning the Champions league and Italy winning the Euros in the same year and came 3rd in the Ballon d'Or yet still got untold grief by Chelsea fans. You're a big fan of Caicedo, as am I yet he's been a shadow of himself, we've discussed it on here, could it not be the same reason Enzo isn't as good as he was previously, as in the coach? I don't think Caicedo has been bad at all. In fact I think he's been one of our better players but he's been unfairly and harshly criticised by fans, media and pundits alike. Has Caicedo made mistakes? Of course, but he's mostly played well in my opinion. Really starting to believe Enzo is a bit pointless in all honestly. He doesn't excel in any role, for either technical and physical reasons. Over a year and the more he plays the worse he looks in my opinion. I think I'm at the stage now where I'd be happy to move on if there was a suitable buyer but I doubt there will be. The clubs that can afford him will buy better for cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyDroy Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 It's all a bit underwhelming with him isn't it? Its a bit like watching Jorginho try to reinvent himself as a box to box midfielder in the twilight of his career. Not saying he is but for me he certainly plays football and runs like he's about 30 pounds overweight. Just soooo slow and poor Caicedo must hate the sight of him by now as he's constantly left entirely exposed by his midfield partner who either doesn't bother to run back or on the few occasions he bothers is far too slow to keep up anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 Just now, MickyDroy said: It's all a bit underwhelming with him isn't it? Its a bit like watching Jorginho try to reinvent himself as a box to box midfielder in the twilight of his career. Not saying he is but for me he certainly plays football and runs like he's about 30 pounds overweight. Just soooo slow and poor Caicedo must hate the sight of him by now as he's constantly left entirely exposed by his midfield partner who either doesn't bother to run back or on the few occasions he bothers is far too slow to keep up anyways. He runs like he's wearing welly's reminsicent of a chubby child with shorts reaching half way down his leg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiswickblue Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said: He runs like he's wearing welly's reminsicent of a chubby child with shorts reaching half way down his leg He runs like he has a hernia that requires an operation! Why is he playing?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 Just now, chiswickblue said: He runs like he has a hernia that requires an operation! Why is he playing?! This is absolutely true and he shouldn't be . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Original 21 Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 31 minutes ago, chiswickblue said: He runs like he has a hernia that requires an operation! Why is he playing?! Because someone has decided that a herniated Enzo operating at limited capacity is better than Casadei or whatever other formation we come up with. Although the Everton result suggests otherwise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 1 hour ago, chiswickblue said: He runs like he has a hernia that requires an operation! Why is he playing?! Hernias are a funny thing, you can live with them pretty much forever with absolutely no issue or they can be pretty painful, all the time. One thing for absolute certainty though is that left alone, they won't get any better and doing any form of exercise, let alone playing football in the Premier league, is not a good idea, the risk of strangulation and serious harm is much higher if you chose to ignore it and carry on with physical activity. This should have been dealt with the second he was diagnosed and Pochettino saying he will leave the decision to the player himself is, how would @Mark Kellyput it............ cowardly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xceleryx Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 7 minutes ago, martin1905 said: Hernias are a funny thing, you can live with them pretty much forever with absolutely no issue or they can be pretty painful, all the time. One thing for absolute certainty though is that left alone, they won't get any better and doing any form of exercise, let alone playing football in the Premier league, is not a good idea, the risk of strangulation and serious harm is much higher if you chose to ignore it and carry on with physical activity. This should have been dealt with the second he was diagnosed and Pochettino saying he will leave the decision to the player himself is, how would @Mark Kellyput it............ cowardly. It isn't really the managers decision alone to be making in fairness either, it's the medical team and the player themselves also contributing.. They've probably all sat down and assessed the situation as one that won't worsen by continuing to play. With our limited midfield depth, the possibility of cup finals, and Enzo's apparent desire to play in the Olympics at seasons end, playing through it at the time was probably seen as understandable. Now that the season is more or less dead for us we really should be pushing him to get it fixed properly and shut him down for the season, even if that impedes his Olympic desires. There's no point in dragging it out any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 7 minutes ago, xceleryx said: It isn't really the managers decision alone to be making in fairness either, it's the medical team and the player themselves also contributing.. They've probably all sat down and assessed the situation as one that won't worsen by continuing to play. With our limited midfield depth, the possibility of cup finals, and Enzo's apparent desire to play in the Olympics at seasons end, playing through it at the time was probably seen as understandable. It's not his decision and clearly he can't force the issue but he does pick the players and all he had to do is quite simply not pick him. And any medical person that claims it won't get worse by continuing to play should be instantly sacked. It may not get worse, sure, but it absolutely could and certainly won't get any better by ignoring it. 7 minutes ago, xceleryx said: Now that the season is more or less dead for us we really should be pushing him to get it fixed properly and shut him down for the season, even if that impedes his Olympic desires. There's no point in dragging it out any longer. He's less likely to get it done now than before, didn't even know the Olympics was on this year but I'd imagine if he'd be more bothered about playing in the Copa America, which Argentina will no doubt go deep into and then will have the surgery after, just in time for him to miss the start of next season. Brilliant planning by all involved..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
east lower Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 2 hours ago, chiswickblue said: He runs like he has a hernia that requires an operation! Why is he playing?! Well, last night he had family in the crowd - assume they were family as they had his name on their shirts and one of them was his double. Waving, gestures and some shouts at each other. Concentrate on what’s coming, not on family related gestures. I had debate on the subject with another forum member, but maybe there’s pressure to play him coming from elsewhere or maybe the coach thinks he has to play him to not irk those above him. Bottom line is he should get the treatment required to fix the issue straight away. Nothing left to play for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thevelourfog Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 I'm amazed he played yesterday, should have been straight to the operating table when our season finished on Saturday. Don't rate him, haven't understood it since the first time I saw him kick a ball for us, but I still don't think playing him into the ground is a great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boratsbrother Posted April 24 Share Posted April 24 For me his biggest problem is that his one real attribute (passing) doesn't compensate for his physical limitations. Fabregas wasn't the quickest but he was a genuinely elite level passer which easily compensated for his lack of pace. Way back to Bobby Moore who was as slow as a coach, but he made up for that by having a brilliant football brain, positioning sense and timing of the tackle. JT another one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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