VAR - The Great Debate

[flllerywhereru2]

So we had one go our way on Tuesday which was a pleasant surprise. But note the reaction from the media, suggesting it was soft or I quote '' you probably wont get that in the premier league/england'' ....Erm that should be sounding alarm bells, why is that not a penalty in England?  Or more relevant why is not always a  pen in England....our officials are already unhealthily influenced by the media as it is without them giving indirect instructions...there is a reason why you tust the officials more in Europe, they have no agenda mostly and can make mistakes but they are mostly honest ones.

[Bert19]

58 minutes ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

So we had one go our way on Tuesday which was a pleasant surprise. But note the reaction from the media, suggesting it was soft or I quote '' you probably wont get that in the premier league/england'' ....Erm that should be sounding alarm bells, why is that not a penalty in England?  Or more relevant why is not always a  pen in England....our officials are already unhealthily influenced by the media as it is without them giving indirect instructions...there is a reason why you tust the officials more in Europe, they have no agenda mostly and can make mistakes but they are mostly honest ones.

And they don't just make up the rules and when to apply them on a game by game basis.  There is that too.  

I'm amazed that a Ref that actually let Dortmund off with a lot of fouls (and punished our players for a lot of 50-50 ones) is being critiqued for actually applying rules consistently as other UEFA Refs have. 

Unless of course, the media here have a bias towards other sides and like seeing our managers being sacked? But that couldn't be the case at all i'm sure..... 😏

[Mark Kelly]

I thought the ref had probably been advised he'd missed a penalty earlier where Havertz is bearing down on goal and just as he shot he got a sneaky shove in the back that threw his balance and aim off and was just taking the opportunity to even things up 

[Bert19]

40 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I thought the ref had probably been advised he'd missed a penalty earlier where Havertz is bearing down on goal and just as he shot he got a sneaky shove in the back that threw his balance and aim off and was just taking the opportunity to even things up 

I hate Emre Can. Scouse t*t.  Loves dishing it out, but cannot take it at all. 

[flllerywhereru2]

1 hour ago, Bert19 said:

I hate Emre Can. Scouse t*t.  Loves dishing it out, but cannot take it at all. 

Yes that is one of their irritating characteristics, unbearable self righteousness being another.

[chara]

3 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I thought the ref had probably been advised he'd missed a penalty earlier where Havertz is bearing down on goal and just as he shot he got a sneaky shove in the back that threw his balance and aim off and was just taking the opportunity to even things up 

Ain't that the truth..said at the time what a clever professional foul it was.

As was the penalty...no Roy of the Rovers out there ever.

Edited March 9, 2023 by chara

[Sciatika]

3 hours ago, Bert19 said:

I hate Emre Can. Scouse t*t.  Loves dishing it out, but cannot take it at all. 

Romero is another one that kicks out and then goes down when brushed against. I'd say, "like a little girl", but I met many girls who are alot tougher than him. I think I know what his nickname is "cuti"

[Bert19]

16 hours ago, Sciatika said:

Romero is another one that kicks out and then goes down when brushed against. I'd say, "like a little girl", but I met many girls who are alot tougher than him. I think I know what his nickname is "cuti"

Got his just desserts on Wednesday night mind you.  Given he gets away with that in 90% of Prem games, i'm sure he expected to again in Europe.  Bad luck mate. 

[Ham]

Just now, Bert19 said:

Got his just desserts on Wednesday night mind you.  Given he gets away with that in 90% of Prem games, i'm sure he expected to again in Europe.  Bad luck mate. 

He also got away with being sent off long before he did on Wednesday. He slapped a Milan player in the face while he was running past him with the ball and inexplicable got away with it even though the foul was given. He was already on a yellow and should have at least had a second. 

He's scum. 

[flllerywhereru2]

6 hours ago, Ham said:

He also got away with being sent off long before he did on Wednesday. He slapped a Milan player in the face while he was running past him with the ball and inexplicable got away with it even though the foul was given. He was already on a yellow and should have at least had a second. 

He's scum. 

Indeed he is would have loved to have seen a prime Diago Costa up against him

[chrisb]

Once again VAR at its most contentious with the decisions made today. Utterly useless system as it stands.

[Bones]

On 11/03/2023 at 21:39, chrisb said:

Once again VAR at its most contentious with the decisions made today. Utterly useless system as it stands.

Players and fans just never know whether to celebrate a goal nowadays. At least the decisions used to be instant…

[thevelourfog]

See the assault on Felix is going viral thanks to Utd fans staggered that Casemiro was sent off. I have some sympathy. 

[paulw66]

On 11/03/2023 at 19:39, chrisb said:

Once again VAR at its most contentious with the decisions made today. Utterly useless system as it stands.

I didn't think any of the decisions were that bad in isolation, but it certainly showed to me, why it doesn't improve the game.

The foul on Felix, pre VAR, I wouldn't have had a problem with, apart from there being no yellow. I don't think it was a clear red, but that is the trouble with VAR, you see similar ones being reviewed and given. Pre VAR, I think it would have been accepted had he just given a yellow. The fact he gave nothing is nothing to do with VAR, just incompetence. 

The Felix offside was offside, even if marginal, but again I don't see how disallowing a goal when a player is 6 inches offside constitutes an improvement. This led to there being no celebration for the Havertz goal at all.

The Mudryk goal again was offside but marginal.

Then you had the potential offside of Havertz for the third goal, which again to me highlights the problem with offside being black and white. Havertz received the ball on the wing, dribbled 30 yards, crossed it, then Kova scored.......to me, there could / should be more leniency where the potential offside is a long way from goal. I know this may sound wooly, but a player 6 inches offside on the wing near the halfway line (Havertz, goal 3)  is very different to someone being 6 inches offside and tapping it in (Felix at 1-0) 

[Bert19]

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

See the assault on Felix is going viral thanks to Utd fans staggered that Casemiro was sent off. I have some sympathy. 

I haven't seen the one on Havertz just before half-time, but I saw a photo of the stud marks and bruises on his torso.  Looked like an open and shut case based on that evidence?

[Mark Kelly]

23 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

I didn't think any of the decisions were that bad in isolation, but it certainly showed to me, why it doesn't improve the game.

The foul on Felix, pre VAR, I wouldn't have had a problem with, apart from there being no yellow. I don't think it was a clear red, but that is the trouble with VAR, you see similar ones being reviewed and given. Pre VAR, I think it would have been accepted had he just given a yellow. The fact he gave nothing is nothing to do with VAR, just incompetence. 

The Felix offside was offside, even if marginal, but again I don't see how disallowing a goal when a player is 6 inches offside constitutes an improvement. This led to there being no celebration for the Havertz goal at all.

The Mudryk goal again was offside but marginal.

Then you had the potential offside of Havertz for the third goal, which again to me highlights the problem with offside being black and white. Havertz received the ball on the wing, dribbled 30 yards, crossed it, then Kova scored.......to me, there could / should be more leniency where the potential offside is a long way from goal. I know this may sound wooly, but a player 6 inches offside on the wing near the halfway line (Havertz, goal 3)  is very different to someone being 6 inches offside and tapping it in (Felix at 1-0) 

The entire offside debate is ludicrous to begin with , the law was brought in to stop players goal hanging and now has morphed into your toenail being half a centimetre in front of the opposition , it needs revision and clarification . 

[paulw66]

3 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The entire offside debate is ludicrous to begin with , the law was brought in to stop players goal hanging and now has morphed into your toenail being half a centimetre in front of the opposition , it needs revision and clarification . 

Sure........and that's the problem with making it black and white and using tech. 

If 6 inches is ok, what about 12, what about a yard........where and what becomes acceptable? 

Edit - this is where rugby gets it right. They dont look for these sort of tiny marginal calls, unless it's a foot in touch, or the ball being grounded (effectively goal line tech). If someone is 6 inches offside in rugby, they dont care. If there is a forward pass by 6 inches, they don't care.

Edited March 13, 2023 by paulw66

[chrisb]

21 minutes ago, Bert19 said:

I haven't seen the one on Havertz just before half-time, but I saw a photo of the stud marks and bruises on his torso.  Looked like an open and shut case based on that evidence?

It was deemed to be Havertz getting caught by the “follow through”. Given that the assault on Felix didn’t even warrant a yellow according to the ref it was no surprise to see nothing given for that one either. Different ref and it could quite easily been two reds.

[ROTG]

13 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Sure........and that's the problem with making it black and white and using tech. 

If 6 inches is ok, what about 12, what about a yard........where and what becomes acceptable? 

Edit - this is where rugby gets it right. They dont look for these sort of tiny marginal calls, unless it's a foot in touch, or the ball being grounded (effectively goal line tech). If someone is 6 inches offside in rugby, they dont care. If there is a forward pass by 6 inches, they don't care.

With all this additional technology, cannot understand why the rule makers do not use the rugby principle of stopping the clock for injuries, VAR and time wasting, rather than the 4th official adding additional time at the end of 45 minutes.  IMO stopping the clock on the big screen would hopefully discourage players from feigning injuries. 
 

[paulw66]

8 minutes ago, chrisb said:

It was deemed to be Havertz getting caught by the “follow through”. Given that the assault on Felix didn’t even warrant a yellow according to the ref it was no surprise to see nothing given for that one either. Different ref and it could quite easily been two reds.

I have sympathy with the one on Havertz. If you clear a ball with force, especially on the volley your foot inevitably goes high on the follow through. It is impossible to stop it. 

[Rob B]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

The entire offside debate is ludicrous to begin with , the law was brought in to stop players goal hanging and now has morphed into your toenail being half a centimetre in front of the opposition , it needs revision and clarification . 

Bang on. 

The offside rule hasn't changed, but the implementation of VAR has meant that every goal is scrutinised to the enth degree, to an extent where goals that aren't even appealed by the opposition, or flagged offside by the linesman are being checked. 

Two possible solutions would be:

1.  Introduce the daylight rule that Wenger was advocating.  So level is onside and to be flagged as offside, there has to be a clear, visible gap in-between the last defender and the attacker.
2. Every team gets a number of VAR appeals (let's say 2) where they can challenge the on-field decision. 

[paulw66]

24 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Bang on. 

The offside rule hasn't changed, but the implementation of VAR has meant that every goal is scrutinised to the enth degree, to an extent where goals that aren't even appealed by the opposition, or flagged offside by the linesman are being checked. 

Two possible solutions would be:

1.  Introduce the daylight rule that Wenger was advocating.  So level is onside and to be flagged as offside, there has to be a clear, visible gap in-between the last defender and the attacker.
2. Every team gets a number of VAR appeals (let's say 2) where they can challenge the on-field decision. 

The ones that get me are where both feet are onside, but a part of the upper body is offside. What advantage does the attacker get from that when they are running through from the half way line?

[Backbiter]

3 hours ago, ROTG said:

With all this additional technology, cannot understand why the rule makers do not use the rugby principle of stopping the clock for injuries, VAR and time wasting, rather than the 4th official adding additional time at the end of 45 minutes.  IMO stopping the clock on the big screen would hopefully discourage players from feigning injuries. 
 

Time-keeping is one of my biggest gripes (after the blatantly corrupt non-red cards for grotesque over-the-top fouls). Refs' time-keeping is not transparent and can be used to dishonestly affect the outcome of matches, while allowing cheating teams to profit from time-wasting tactics.

[Bones]

11 hours ago, paulw66 said:

I didn't think any of the decisions were that bad in isolation, but it certainly showed to me, why it doesn't improve the game.

The foul on Felix, pre VAR, I wouldn't have had a problem with, apart from there being no yellow. I don't think it was a clear red, but that is the trouble with VAR, you see similar ones being reviewed and given. Pre VAR, I think it would have been accepted had he just given a yellow. The fact he gave nothing is nothing to do with VAR, just incompetence. 

The Felix offside was offside, even if marginal, but again I don't see how disallowing a goal when a player is 6 inches offside constitutes an improvement. This led to there being no celebration for the Havertz goal at all.

The Mudryk goal again was offside but marginal.

Then you had the potential offside of Havertz for the third goal, which again to me highlights the problem with offside being black and white. Havertz received the ball on the wing, dribbled 30 yards, crossed it, then Kova scored.......to me, there could / should be more leniency where the potential offside is a long way from goal. I know this may sound wooly, but a player 6 inches offside on the wing near the halfway line (Havertz, goal 3)  is very different to someone being 6 inches offside and tapping it in (Felix at 1-0) 

Incompetence indeed, but whose incompetence?
 

We have to remember that prior to this season the Refs were instructed by the league to give less fouls and ecourage dangerous play so that the game is “more exciting to watch”.

[flllerywhereru2]

With all the furore of Potters exit and the slapstick nature of the match saturday did the officials part in the result get missed? Exactly how was Chilwells perfectly good equaliser disallowed and how was Mcginn able to foul his way (i counted 5) through the game in a match where there were some very easy cards given . The key point actually is that Chelsea had 3 cards before one was given to a villa player (late on when the game was already done). we were nicely screwed over by biased refereeing/Var on saturday.  Of course a fully firing Chelsea would probably have found enough goals to overcome the extra handicap but the point is it was there.