VAR - The Great Debate

[Holymoly]

4 hours ago, Sciatika said:

Agree with this. The best antidote to poor decision-making is transparency.

Also, we need reinforcement of the rules about players surrounding the ref. Most PL refs are homers, and that exacerbates it. Refs should be encouraged to dish out a few cards.

The difference is that referees in rugby have respect. Football officials would need to garner the respect before any of this would be able to occur. Chicken and egg conundrum.

[chara]

20 minutes ago, RDCW said:

The point is, if your appeal is successful then it is retained; as long as your appeals continue to be successful you can have as many appeals as you want.

OK... I know we are talking theory and not reality and I do agree with the principle of appeals but my concern is that in the same way VAR has become a tactic in many ways (by the PM lot and often hysterical player appeals to the ref,,especially a "homer")) use of tactical appeals could become a norm and undermine the good sense of such...much as VAR is a great idea but in reality causes more controversy and bad feeling than necessary.

I recall an incident many ,many years ago repeated at the montage start of a Sunday afternoon Match review programme (as I recall)..the player goes down in an "amusing" incident to general commentator giggles. The player in question told me face to face that they were under pressure and needed to disrupt the flow..and did so. 

[chara]

2 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

The difference is that referees in rugby have respect. Football officials would need to garner the respect before any of this would be able to occur. Chicken and egg conundrum.

My question is why do rugby referees have that respect?

That has been so as long as I can remember and long before the Pro game and at all levels.

[RDCW]

19 minutes ago, chara said:

OK... I know we are talking theory and not reality and I do agree with the principle of appeals but my concern is that in the same way VAR has become a tactic in many ways (by the PM lot and often hysterical player appeals to the ref,,especially a "homer")) use of tactical appeals could become a norm and undermine the good sense of such...much as VAR is a great idea but in reality causes more controversy and bad feeling than necessary.

I recall an incident many ,many years ago repeated at the montage start of a Sunday afternoon Match review programme (as I recall)..the player goes down in an "amusing" incident to general commentator giggles. The player in question told me face to face that they were under pressure and needed to disrupt the flow..and did so. 

Oddly enough an appeals process could well lead to the end of hysterical player appeals, surrounding the ref, etc, as all he would have to say is, "Do you want to use an appeal? If not, go away."

[chara]

1 minute ago, RDCW said:

Oddly enough an appeals process could well lead to the end of hysterical player appeals, surrounding the ref, etc, as all he would have to say is, "Do you want to use an appeal? If not, go away."

Ah Mr Williams...that is the observation of a man with a lot of good sense...the average player on the other hand?

[RDCW]

1 minute ago, chara said:

Ah Mr Williams...that is the observation of a man with a lot of good sense...the average player on the other hand?

😉

[Flinkers]

9 hours ago, chara said:

Ah Mr Williams...that is the observation of a man with a lot of good sense...the average player on the other hand?

I’m fairly sure that if a few games ended with 7 or 8 players on each side, the disrespect would stop pretty quickly.

[RDCW]

1 hour ago, Flinkers said:

I’m fairly sure that if a few games ended with 7 or 8 players on each side, the disrespect would stop pretty quickly.

Yes. The problem is easily solved. Just introduce a zero tolerance policy for serious dissent. For some bizarre reason the will is not there, which means match officials on parks all over the country contine to have to deal with disgusting treatment.

[Flinkers]

2 hours ago, RDCW said:

Yes. The problem is easily solved. Just introduce a zero tolerance policy for serious dissent. For some bizarre reason the will is not there, which means match officials on parks all over the country contine to have to deal with disgusting treatment.

In all honesty it probably doesn’t have to be as draconian as cards or sendings off - it could also just be an automatic free kick against for any backchat.

[Mark Kelly]

If they decide that sending off anyone for dissent is the new thing I can guarantee they'll start the trial when we're playing Spurs , let them kick us all game long like usual and send off five of our players before abandoning the concept the week later.

[Bison]

Neil Swarbrick (the VAR ref for Saturday's game vs West Ham) has been dropped for this weekend's round of fixtures. I wonder why? We didn't get a public apology so clearly they didn't think there was much wrong with the decision.

Unless they've dropped him for not giving West Ham the offside goal which would make more sense.

[ROTG]

9 hours ago, RDCW said:

Yes. The problem is easily solved. Just introduce a zero tolerance policy for serious dissent. For some bizarre reason the will is not there, which means match officials on parks all over the country contine to have to deal with disgusting treatment.

Personally I believe with the money in the game etc. At all levels of football why the officials do not wear body cams is beyond me. At least if they feel intimidated they are in a position not to provoke confrontation and report the matter after the match when they submit their match report and upload the match to the local FA representatives. 

just checked on Amazon £99 for a body cam with audio. 
 

I say this because my daughter informed me my grandsons game over the weekend got ugly when his team went two goals up, the rival parents started to become very vocal towards the officials who were young lads and challenging every decision thereafter, which resulted in them getting a soft decision and goal. Fortunately my grandsons side won the game.
 

She said this is not the first time this has happened. 
 

[flllerywhereru2]

15 hours ago, ROTG said:

Personally I believe with the money in the game etc. At all levels of football why the officials do not wear body cams is beyond me. At least if they feel intimidated they are in a position not to provoke confrontation and report the matter after the match when they submit their match report and upload the match to the local FA representatives. 

just checked on Amazon £99 for a body cam with audio. 
 

I say this because my daughter informed me my grandsons game over the weekend got ugly when his team went two goals up, the rival parents started to become very vocal towards the officials who were young lads and challenging every decision thereafter, which resulted in them getting a soft decision and goal. Fortunately my grandsons side won the game.
 

She said this is not the first time this has happened. 
 

I coach my eldest sons team and sometimes run the line/ref the youngests matches and have noticed an increase in that sort of behaviour- parent linesmen who just flag anything whether its offside or not/aggressive kids/parents who treat every game like its the world cup final. I seriously think the scrutiny on TV combined with how picky VAR is are a factor. Im based in the Netherlands by the way and admittedly the youngest plays at pretty much the highest level in this country sometimes against the likes of Ajax and scouts are constantly watching. But have also noticed it at lower level matches too.

[thevelourfog]

On 13/02/2023 at 15:07, Mark Kelly said:

Transparency is exactly what the PGMOL don't want .

They want to be able to make decisions clouded by obfuscation .

Quite. It is a key difference between rugby and football. As much as people like to pretend it's the players and fans, it's the official's behaviour. Transparency elicits respect. The minute it was decided (since changed but don't care, the damage was done) that fans at grounds weren't going to be shown VAR's rationales, it was clear VAR is not to help football.

I don't see that an appeals system works, or makes any real difference. The issue with VAR is that multiple positions of bias and interpretation are being used as an antidote to one level of it. And generally it is just multiple people, rather than positions, given they are all coached to think and do the same things (not unreasonably, but does create a problem of group think and confirmation bias). 

Open up VAR decisions, or get rid of VAR.

[east lower]

Firstly, I have to state that the only piece of decision making 'Technology' I trust is the goal-line decision making system - and that on at least one occasion has been proved fallible, something about an angle if I recall correctly.

The VAR system was brought in, or so we were told to eliminate mistakes. In the real world I suspect it was to take the heat off the officials and to give even more control to the officials - Whether for suspicious reasons or for the sake of 'truth & justice', we'll never know..

It has become at least as controversial as the decisions made prior to VAR in my opinion and as such I believe should be dispensed with. The 'offsides' where a knee or half a foot or part of an appendage is 'offside' was never part of the agenda as far as I recall and maybe is not what the spirit of our game is about? The concept was established to eliminate the glaring errors that were occurring, mistaken ID, yards offside or onside. Who knows whats' what with the handball rule any more - One rule in the European competitions and a different set of criteria applied in the PL.

It's a damn mess and needs binning-off. Plus the negative effect VAR has when a goal is scored, or not as the case may be. I have a small bit of sympathy for the VAR officials, they are under intense pressure to make the decision quickly and may in turn make a mistake, as in the Arsenal game at the weekend. However, as it was Lee Mason I have no sympathy whatsoever because he is a ****!    

Edited February 15, 2023 by east lower

[ROTG]

On 14/02/2023 at 09:24, RDCW said:

Yes. The problem is easily solved. Just introduce a zero tolerance policy for serious dissent. For some bizarre reason the will is not there, which means match officials on parks all over the country contine to have to deal with disgusting treatment.

Maybe someone at the FA is reading this thread. 
 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/mohammed-liverpool-essex-worcester-middlesbrough-b2284345.html?amp
 

 

[RDCW]

2 hours ago, ROTG said:

Maybe someone at the FA is reading this thread. 
 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/mohammed-liverpool-essex-worcester-middlesbrough-b2284345.html?amp
 

 

Excellent. It would be hard for anyone to excuse their brutish behaviour when you can hold a mirror up to them like this.

[Sciatika]

It only works if the footage and audio are publicly available (preferably in realtime).

[ROTG]

19 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

It only works if the footage and audio are publicly available (preferably in realtime).

Not at grass roots. 
If there is intimidation towards an official the game should continue regardless of whether the intimidation is influencing the game. Leaving the officials to submit a report at the end of the game supported by the body cam evidence. Then it’s down to the local FA to act. 

[Sciatika]

I see that. I just want to make sure decision-making is as transparent as possible at the elite level.

[RDCW]

55 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

I see that. I just want to make sure decision-making is as transparent as possible at the elite level.

It can't be live streamed at the beginning because of the extreme filth which comes out of the mouths of these guys. Let it be known that it is being re order and I think it would knick it on the head reasonably quickly.

[martin1905]

On 14/02/2023 at 16:50, ROTG said:

Personally I believe with the money in the game etc. At all levels of football why the officials do not wear body cams is beyond me. At least if they feel intimidated they are in a position not to provoke confrontation and report the matter after the match when they submit their match report and upload the match to the local FA representatives. 

just checked on Amazon £99 for a body cam with audio. 
 

I say this because my daughter informed me my grandsons game over the weekend got ugly when his team went two goals up, the rival parents started to become very vocal towards the officials who were young lads and challenging every decision thereafter, which resulted in them getting a soft decision and goal. Fortunately my grandsons side won the game.
 

She said this is not the first time this has happened. 
 

My boys have played grass routes football for best part of ten years now so I've seen hundreds and hundreds of games as they both play Saturday and Sunday.

It is genuinely shocking the behaviour of some parents and coaches, truly shocking.

[Bob Singleton]

Much as I hate linking to the Fail...

Lee Mason has resigned as a PGMOL match official


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11764529/Lee-Mason-leaves-PGMOL-mutual-consent-following-VAR-blunder.html

[Mark Kelly]

13 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

Much as I hate linking to the Fail...

Lee Mason has resigned as a PGMOL match official


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11764529/Lee-Mason-leaves-PGMOL-mutual-consent-following-VAR-blunder.html

I don't like seeing anyone losing their jobs especially when this dreadful referee doesn't stick out as any worse than any of the others. 

Maybe if the PGMOL wasn't agenda driven we'd get a better product?

[Ham]

33 minutes ago, Bob Singleton said:

Much as I hate linking to the Fail...

Lee Mason has resigned as a PGMOL match official


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11764529/Lee-Mason-leaves-PGMOL-mutual-consent-following-VAR-blunder.html

It took a decision against one of the red old guard for this to happen.