Chelsea 1 Fulham 0

[NoblyBobly]

Anyone know what the “incident” was before the game that Poch said put them off their stride a bit? 

[ShedMiddle]

10 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

Anyone know what the “incident” was before the game that Poch said put them off their stride a bit? 

They probably got asked to partake in a film during what would normally be game prep time ..

[asvaberg]

1 minute ago, ShedMiddle said:

They probably got asked to partake in a film during what would normally be game prep time ..

I hope Poch got really angry at the movie-people - "get the h*** out of here"..... I wish this was the truth. But we will probably never know,

[Ham]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

It was a bit of a needless challenge in the first place, I guess you can put that down to Gusto's age. 

You'd have criticised him for bottling it if he didn't make the challenge. 

[boratsbrother]

9 minutes ago, Ham said:

You'd have criticised him for bottling it if he didn't make the challenge. 

Yes, if he didn't go for it he'd be accused of a lack of commitment.

There's a lot more of those kinds of fouls these days with players making genuine attempts for the ball but end up being a fraction too late or high. Imho it's entirely down to the pace and intensity of the modern game.

[Sciatika]

19 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Yes, if he didn't go for it he'd be accused of a lack of commitment.

There's a lot more of those kinds of fouls these days with players making genuine attempts for the ball but end up being a fraction too late or high. Imho it's entirely down to the pace and intensity of the modern game.

And the endless use of replays either with VAR or in the studio. Watching something in slow motion always looks worse, and repeating it over and over is the worst of all.

[boratsbrother]

14 hours ago, Dwmh said:

 

There has been a lot of fan mood swings recently.  Player swings too, but most of us are not 22 or younger.
The positive reaction to Luton was daft IMO - but so was the negative reaction to Middlesborough (who have to hang on for 90 or 120 mins at the Bridge - they won't be looking forward to that).
Now it is all up again.  Nothing has changed, we went from a 44 pont team to a 54 point team.  No more than that.
We beat 1 team (villa away) in the top 10 last season.  We have beaten 2 so far this season (9 man spurs and Brighton)
We are a 54 point team now  (on course for 56 but havng played Fulham and Luton twice).

 

What our  final points total will be isn't that important at this moment in time. What's  more important is whether or not there's been progress this season and the answer to that is a definite yes!

Without going into individual performances, injuries and all that alphabet stuff, let's look at some important facts that prove there's progress.

We have not been behind at half time in any game this season. That shows that no team has had an easy time against us in the first half.  Of course there's been a significant drop off in the second half of ganes but that's something that should be put right over time when these players grow more confident, composed and  consistent when they become more experienced.

We've not lost a game in which we've taken the lead.

We have ground out results in games which we would have dropped points last season. That is something the top teams do, along with improving ones.

These are important signs that the team is gradually improving, which I thought was all most of us wanted and expected at the start of this season. Sadly, it seems like it's not enough for some of our fans. 

 

 

 

[Dwmh]

29 minutes ago, Ham said:

You'd have criticised him for bottling it if he didn't make the challenge. 

Fair point.  It is worrying though that the game finished 5 yellows to one despite us having a h/t lead and 55% possession.
That card was probably excusable from the fan/caoch pov even if it was close to a Red but the other 4?  2 were for kicking the ball away - pretty sure every other club were told that was a yello card offence at start of season.
 

We are top of the yellow card league, 5 ahead of Sheff U and have 3 of the 37 Red cards so far.
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_yel_card

Blame the manager or blame the club for having so many inexperienced players, but it can't help.  Especially as we depend on so few active outfield players making a suspension both more likely and more harmful.

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

What our  final points total will be isn't that important at this moment in time. What's  more important is whether or not there's been progress this season and the answer to that is a definite yes!

Good post.  Certainly we are better than last year.  As I say we are going from a 44 point team to a 54 point team.  The Fulham game was a positive step.  It was a text book example of how a mid-table PL team should win a home game against a similar but slightly weaker mid-table team.
But that is all.  If we could gain 10 points a season from now on we would be up back in the CL ready for season 2027/28.

Of course it isn't that easy.  We found the snake that takes us down 30 points.  Ladders that take you up 10 points are harder and harder to find as you go back up the board.  And we can't roll double sixes because we are out of FFP funds.  (And I am ignoring my own expectations of serious conflict over the long contracts).

Still if all goes well, 2030 we may once again reach the CL last 16 again.

Is that glass half full or half empty - it is mid-table with very long term dreams.  

[Sabrina F.]

Given all the crap I and most of us, have given Poch for his subs and 2nd half management, I thought bringing on Chilwell and essentially turning into a hybrid back 3 was prettty smart.

Just before the sub we started losing control, after the sub we calmed things down. The last few minutes of the game weren't so much tactical mismanagment but a telling sign of the maturity of this team: Madueke, Palmer and Enzo all had counters where all they had to do was either go for the kill or keep the ball.  Instead, they did neither and gave the ball away. The number of fouls too - given our setpiece weakness, it's just self sabotage.

I think for all his faults, Pochettino has been the better of all the Clearlake/Boehly managers - simply by remaining fairly steady, recovering from defeats much better and being understanding of his players stage of development and what they could offer or not.

Not a high bar, but beggars can't be choosers. Especially if the alternative choice is enduring the guy sitting next to the sporting directors yesterday.

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

Given all the crap I and most of us, have given Poch for his subs and 2nd half management, I thought bringing on Chilwell and essentially turning into a hybrid back 3 was prettty smart.

Yes.  The other way to look at it was his 30 min options on the bench were Mudryk, Chilwell, Badiashile (first time on bench after injury) and Madueke.
Sterling and a still getting fit Broja needed rotating and perhaps Gusto.  So his options were two of Mudryk, Chilwell or Madueke.
Mudryk and Madueke to my mind significantly weakens the abilty to hold on to a 1 goal lead.
The only other realistic option might have been Badiashile for someone, probably with Disasi shifting and Gusto off.  But we don't know if Badiashile is really fit (Sanchez is unavailable so only 2GKs available for bench).  And that might have messed up a defence that was playing ok.

2 minutes ago, Sabrina F. said:

I think for all his faults, Pochettino has been the better of all the Clearlake/Boehly managers - simply by remaining fairly steady, recovering from defeats much better and being understanding of his players stage of development and what they could offer or not.

Ambitions more in tune with our reality.

[Mark Kelly]

26 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Mudryk and Madueke to my mind significantly weakens the abilty to hold on to a 1 goal lead. 

Especially if you're a coward. 

Some coaches may have thought "throw on fresh legs, get a second and kill the game" 

Not Fat Mo. 

He capitulated to his own cowardice and then cowardly blamed the poor performance on outside influences that he didn't want to expand upon. 

I'm beginning to wonder if the lemons on his desk have fallen out of his head. 

Edited January 14 by Mark Kelly

[Dwmh]

3 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Especially if you're a coward. 

Some coaches may have thought "throw on fresh legs, get a second and kill the game" 

Not Fat Mo. 

He capitulated to his own cowardice and then cowardly blamed the poor performance on outside influences that he didn't want to expand upon. 

I'm beginning to wonder if the lemons on his desk have fallen out of his head. 

Reading the thread most of the posters are full of praise (for the team not the coach) for holding out for the last half.  No one else has said we should have scored two.

I suspect what most upset you though was the admission that Gusto was lucky not to get a Red.

We are a mid table team with a manager that has mid-table thoughts and increasingly a fanbase that has got used to that.

[Alex]

18 hours ago, martin1905 said:

I thought the balance of the team was much better today with Enzo and Caicedo playing the double 6 and Gallagher further ahead.  Today was the first time I can remember us playing that way with Connor as the 10. We've played plenty of games with Enzo-Caicedo- Gallagher but today was the first, to my mind, that it was a proper Enzo-Caicedo pivot with Gallagher ahead. 

It makes so much sense with the players we have. Lavia and Ugochukwu are natural alternatives in the pivot. Gallagher, for me, is better further forward or in a three man midfield with licence to roam. Chukwuemeka looks like he can play the 10 along with Nkunku, if he ever gets fit.

I was convinced we would predominantly play 4231 this year, we mostly did in pre season but haven't really seen it up until recent weeks. The squad was built for it and I appreciate there's not a massive difference to a 433 but with the players we have it suits so many of them so much better. I know we have had lots of injuries but I don't see why we couldn't have still played it, regardless of personnel.

Enzo Caicedo

Palmer Nkunku Sterling 

Or

Lavia Gallagher

Madueke Chukwuemeka Mudryk

Obviously Ugochukwu could play instead of Chukwuemeka with Gallagher playing further forward or some will say Gallagher should be in the strongest line up, somewhere, but I'm trying to get at how strong we look when we line up that way in terms of quality and depth.

It baffles me that we haven't really seen us playing a proper 4231 all season. I've been very vocal about Caicedo and Enzo, how well they complement each other in that role and just how good I think they are. They both arguably had their best game of the season today and I'm not in the slightest bit surprised.

The reason I am so anti Pochettino is because I believe that group of 11 players are far too good to be mid table.  I said at the beginning of the season our defensive unit is as good as anything, obviously we've been hit hard in that area with injuries but still have plenty of quality. 

We finally have a proper goalkeeper so going forward there really are no excuses. Yes we still desperately need a striker but the balance we have throughout the rest of the squad with the quality and depth there is no reason why we can't  build on what we saw today. It's not difficult, we've got players coming back from injury at the perfect time and hopefully the manager has finally realised the best way to set us up. 

I'm as anti poch as they come but I'm a little excited again, like I was at the start of the season and am willing to forget everything that's happened so far, wipe the slate clean and really get behind the team and even the manager. It probably won't last long, he'll probably continue to fuck it up, play Chilwell LW, Enzo too far forward, Colwill at LB mess up the subs and I'll be back to square one. But I'm going to try and be positive, as positive as I can for as long as the manager allows me to. I actually think we saw a bit of a turning point today, he can't go back now. It's too obvious,  even for him.

I don't want Chanpions league football, we are nowhere near ready for it but playing in the Europa League next season would be so important for the development of this team, both individually and collectively. We have a genuine chance, I have no idea how but we really do, of finishing top 6 and winning a cup which would, all things considered, end up being  one Hell of a season. 

 

 

 

 

Agree with all of that Martin apart from being anti-Poch, I agree with Sabrina far more  on that point.

I genuinely couldn't see any manager coming in at this stage and making much of a better fist of things, maybe Guardiola.

Tuchel should've been given longer for sure, but he's had a history of not getting on with owners, which  probably didn't help.  Winning the Champions League should have given him much more time IMO.  But Chelsea have also had a history of being very  quick to pull the trigger on managers. Ancelotti especially.

 

[Alex]

17 hours ago, Bones said:

Oh I see! Enzo was wearing this bag:

 

 

Lol, he does look like an international school-kid on a trip to London wondering about his chances of successfully chatting up some girls he's seen.

Edited January 14 by Alex
Typo

[boratsbrother]

13 minutes ago, Alex said:

 

I genuinely couldn't see any manager coming in at this stage and making much of a better fist of things, maybe Guardiola.

 

 

Pep has only managed top clubs who were already in a good position when he took over.  Nobody knows how well he'd do  trying to ressurect a team in decline which is full of unproven young players. Carlo failed to do anything at the struggling Everton, which proves how difficult such jobs are.

For where we are and what we've got in terms of the squad profile, I think Poch is doing a decent job and that's enough for me at this moment in time.

[Mark Kelly]

34 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Reading the thread most of the posters are full of praise (for the team not the coach) for holding out for the last half.  No one else has said we should have scored two.

I suspect what most upset you though was the admission that Gusto was lucky not to get a Red.

We are a mid table team with a manager that has mid-table thoughts and increasingly a fanbase that has got used to that.

How have you in any way managed to concoct that response to what I'd written. 

No mention from me anywhere about Gusto whatsoever and what has nobody else suggesting we should have scored two got to do with it? 

The reason we never scored two is the coach deciding to play it safe once again. 

[Dwmh]

10 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The reason we never scored two is the coach deciding to play it safe once again. 

And many on the site have praised the team for doing so.  

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Dwmh said:

And many on the site have praised the team for doing so.  

Jolly good for them. 

Now oh wise sage, enlighten me on why I in particular am dismayed that Gusto didn't get a red card other than your fevered imagination running away with itself. 

[boratsbrother]

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Good post.  Certainly we are better than last year.  As I say we are going from a 44 point team to a 54 point team.  The Fulham game was a positive step.  It was a text book example of how a mid-table PL team should win a home game against a similar but slightly weaker mid-table team.
But that is all.  If we could gain 10 points a season from now on we would be up back in the CL ready for season 2027/28.

Of course it isn't that easy.  We found the snake that takes us down 30 points.  Ladders that take you up 10 points are harder and harder to find as you go back up the board.  And we can't roll double sixes because we are out of FFP funds.  (And I am ignoring my own expectations of serious conflict over the long contracts).

Still if all goes well, 2030 we may once again reach the CL last 16 again.

Is that glass half full or half empty - it is mid-table with very long term dreams.  

It's impossible to predict how quickly players and a team might progress. Arsenal last season and Villa this season both jumped a couple of levels in one year. If we find a striker who starts putting more of our chances away and our defenders settle down and  stop making silly mistakes (quite possible come next season) then we might also jump a couple of levels next over the next year. The potential to do so is there imho.

[boratsbrother]

22 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

How have you in any way managed to concoct that response to what I'd written. 

No mention from me anywhere about Gusto whatsoever and what has nobody else suggesting we should have scored two got to do with it? 

The reason we never scored two is the coach deciding to play it safe once again. 

Gallagher was very unlucky not to have added that second goal. 

That's twice this season he's hit the woodwork with excellent efforts.

[Alex]

23 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Pep has only managed top clubs who were already in a good position when he took over.  Nobody knows how well he'd do  trying to ressurect a team in decline which is full of unproven young players. Carlo failed to do anything at the struggling Everton, which proves how difficult such jobs are.

For where we are and what we've got in terms of the squad profile, I think Poch is doing a decent job and that's enough for me at this moment in time.

There's that school of thought that says that it's the players not the managers that are by far the biggest factor when influencing games. 

A few years ago the Economist analysed 15 years of data which showed the chances of success for a manager switching from a successful side emulating that at their new team was basically a coin toss.

It's why managers always want more control over transfers and not sporting directors in a US style franchise.

We're in a period where football is changing from the old Redknapp-style of management (and possible bungs) to MoneyBall data-driven hires. We as fans have little say. We moan for sure, but few walk away as some did when the Glazers mortgaged United. Generally we suck it all up when largely we're going to be disappointed almost all the time at results on the pitch.

As a Chelsea supporter I'm happy we're competitive in the big games again, big European nights again would be nice, but I'm fairly certain they'll come back soon enough. Maybe in a few years.

 

[Siidi]

I can't say much about Mudryk, as still not sure what his real skills are.  My assessment so far is that Madueke is a full package forward, perhaps with Palmer, the two in our front line who have a broad spectrum of skills. 

Madueke actually knows what he wants to do with the ball, which is get it forward or into the net, something you can't say about Jackson or Mudryk. When he came on, he drove with the ball each time he got it, and created a few  situations. There is no way I would start Jackson ahead of a fit Madueke right now. 

 

 

[Alex]

My point being we've got owners that have seen financial value in English football, are putting a US-system in place to achieve their aims, (largely by turning into Brighton it seems) and we're just going to have to live with that. But giving a manager a good chance for a long period is the best way of success.

[Dwmh]

10 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

It's impossible to predict how quickly players and a team might progress. Arsenal last season and Villa this season both jumped a couple of levels in one year. If we find a striker who starts putting more of our chances away and our defenders settle down and  stop making silly mistakes (quite possible come next season) then we might also jump a couple of levels next over the next year. The potential to do so is there imho.

Yes but you are talking 1 year jumps.  
Arsenal : 70, 56, 61, 69, 84, 80 (on target)
Ironically that 19/20 low was when Arteta came in.  
They have a youngish squad now but they did not build from a young squad, if anything they got younger after they got better.  They were bringing in young players into a mid age team.  in the 69 point season, only Saka, Smith Rowe and Martinelli has 20+ starts aged 22 or under, all were 20+. 
Anyway we are talking about an exception not the rule and they seem to have peaked last year.
If 28 points over 3 years with a stable team and manager is the good example, I'm not confident Chelsea can match that  let alone improve on it.

The challenge for Chelsea is for our kids to grow up as kids.  All a bit Lord of the Flies to me of Butch's blues babies.
Curious, but assuming Silva is not here next year, the average age of the team goes down even if we buy no one.