Liverpool 4 Chelsea 1

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

Well , we're in agreement then.

NB: There's one special person employed at a football club to "help" the players.

Can you guess who that is ? 

Ironically De Zerbi may be the only guy who can save Mudryk.

[McCreadie]

32 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

The whole concept was that you could replace a player stat for stat, on base % for on base %.
Football has a key difference - balance in the team, experience in the team, stubborness in the team, intelligence in the team, all of these need to be managed and balanced.  Putting a football team together is far far more complex than adding baseball players average and counting the total.  The great Moneyball insight is you could value individual players.
So I think the great TB Failure is thinking the same applies to football.  It doesn't.

Its even more fundamental than that. Baseball is one of those weird team sports where the "team" bit is virtually irrelevant. Like cricket, it is about a few individual performances and they dont really need to actually interact and work together barely at all. You can have the rest of the team playing abysmally. That is why moneyball could sometimes work in baseball and say, IPL. Football doesn't work that way. If you have 3 players off form, you've got a massive problem and the "team" element means the whole is way bigger than the sum of the parts. 

[martin1905]

1 minute ago, Max Fowler said:

Ironically De Zerbi may be the only guy who can save Mudryk.

Not so sure.

Jose was pretty good for a 24 year old Terry, 23 year old Petr Cech, 23 year old Joe Cole, 21 year old Arjen Robben, 23 year old Michael Essien.

At Madrid he had Khedira 24, Ozil 22, Di Maria 23, Benzema 23, Higuain 23.

Just look at that list of players aged 21-24 when he took over their clubs and look at the career all those players went onto have.

At the start of next season we will have Gallagher 24,  James 24, Petrovic 24, Enzo 23, Fofana 23, Jackson 23, Badiashille 23, Caicedo 22, Palmer 22, Madueke 22, Colwill 21, Gusto 21.

Always been a bit of a myth that he's not good with young players, yes he might not play an 18 year old academy player but he's always improved young players. Always. Would need some serious research to see if there is anyone better than him but the amount of 21-24 year olds he has improved up to world class level is absurd.  Perhaps he's more perfect than even I first thought. 

 

[thevelourfog]

22 minutes ago, Siidi said:

My point is that judging a players quality by what they have won before or where they played can feel like trying to start a family with a woman because she's a mother of 10 children. 

There are several players that I would like us to replace with better qualities, but when I look at the teams at Aston villa, Spurs, Liverpool and Arsenal, I just think that with a decent coach we should be competing for top four with the squad we have. It's as simple as that for me. 

And whatever the quality or lack of it in your team, getting them much fit is a good starting point for a coach. They look on the  faces of Pochettino  and his assistants is like they have been sent to scout on players

I ... Erm ... What?

You haven't engaged with anything I said, so I'm not sure why you've replied to me at all. Literally nobody would argue that players are and can only ever be as good as what they have already done. A near enough whole squad of players who haven't seen or done much of anything in high level senior football is a very, very different matter. 

Nothing about this club, players and coach included, is close to top 4 quality.

[My Blood Is Blue]

1 minute ago, martin1905 said:

Not so sure.

Jose was pretty good for a 24 year old Terry, 23 year old Petr Cech, 23 year old Joe Cole, 21 year old Arjen Robben, 23 year old Michael Essien.

At Madrid he had Khedira 24, Ozil 22, Di Maria 23, Benzema 23, Higuain 23.

Just look at that list of players aged 21-24 when he took over their clubs and look at the career all those players went onto have.

At the start of next season we will have Gallagher 24,  James 24, Petrovic 24, Enzo 23, Fofana 23, Jackson 23, Badiashille 23, Caicedo 22, Palmer 22, Madueke 22, Colwill 21, Gusto 21.

Always been a bit of a myth that he's not good with young players, yes he might not play an 18 year old academy player but he's always improved young players. Always. Would need some serious research to see if there is anyone better than him but the amount of 21-24 year olds he has improved up to world class level is absurd.  Perhaps he's more perfect than even I first thought. 

 

Very good point this and definitely something overlooked when talking about Jose. Not good with kids maybe, but very good with young men, which is what we currently are.

What Jose also won’t accept is sub at performances, Chilwell probably wouldn’t have made half time yesterday if Jose was in charge. Mudryk would not have been allowed to play at his current level for this long and if Jose didn’t see improvement or feel he could improve him to where he needs him, he wouldn’t be playing him.

I think Joe Cole is always a good example of what Jose can do for a player.

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

Your such hard work at times I really don't know why I bother.

I've not claimed the don't have input. Only you have regarding Pochettino yet claim all the other managers that have come into a job and immediately made huge strides have had input. 

You have absolutely no idea how much input any of them, including Pochettino has had.

Mauricio Pochettino has revealed that it wasn't his idea to sign Cole Palmer. The 21-year-old midfielder has signed a seven-year contract at Chelsea, which includes a club option for a further 12-months, after Manchester City accepted a £42.5million bid. 

Palmer is available for selection on Saturday afternoon when the Blues welcome Nottingham Forest to Stamford Bridge. With Christopher Nkunku expected to be out of action until the end of the year, the England Under-21 international could be thrown into the deep end and make his debut against Steve Cooper's side.

Ahead of the west Londoners' clash against Forest, Pochettino was asked for his thoughts on Palmer and the 51-year-old quickly heaped praise on co-sporting directors Laurence Stewart and Paul Winstanley for their work. Interestingly, the former City star emerged as a target for Chelsea on Wednesday morning and, within a couple of hours, the Blues managed to agree a deal. 

"I think the sporting director and the owner of course, but the sporting director it was his idea to add him to the squad," said Pochettino. "I think he’s fit for the project. Talented player, of course."

[east lower]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Aside from Poch, I would love to see anyone who criticised me for continually slating Mudryk speak up after last night's display.

The guy's performances are so consistently below par - he is so mentally lightweight, IMO he has no absolutely future here. I could pick the worst players in our attack - Broja, Madueke, and Jackson - they are still miles ahead of Mudryk in my mind.

I feel sorry for the guy but he just screams weak mentality. He is an absolute passenger when he comes on - yes we need to be concerned about Sterling, etc. but you see the level when Nkunku comes off the bench. 

Mudryk is already 23 - he's not 18 - he would be the first player I would sell in summer and bring in at least Olise and likely one other winger. 

I would like to see Mudryk with a coach who will play him consistently and one who has shown he can improve players before casting him aside.

We do not need another Mo Salah or Kevin De Bruyne scenario.

[Sciatika]

I have only really looked at the pens and yellow cards. It seems wrong that my first port of call would be referees and VAR, but that's the world we live in.  Assume we put away the first pen, or the Nkunku one that makes it 3-2, and it is a different game.

I think the Gallagher one was marginal. However, had it been one of theirs, it would have been given.  The Nkunku one was a much better claim, better than the pen actually given to them. The distribution of yellows looks suspicious, but I may be wrong. The Chilwell penalty was even more marginal than Conor's, but I think there was contact as Konate was trying to pull out at the last moment. If so, it's not a booking. If I am wrong, it is. The ref chose the latter (too fast for VAR) when I doubt he could know. The Caicedo and Disasi ones were dissent.  Childish. Enzo's was fair enough. He was late. Jota manhandled Chilwell in the lead-up to the Bradley goal, but I am not surprised that it wasn't given. I didn't bother with theirs, as it was over by the time the ref realised he was allowed to book players from both sides. My overall impression is that Tierney and Brooks are homers who prefer the narrative over reality. With refs like that, no one was going to beat Liverpool last night.

They were the better side, but not 4-1 better. Also, someone needs to tell the BBC that 4-1 is not a "thrashing" even when it's Liverpool.

[jasonb]

Hopefully we will use this for motivation when we play them at Wembley.

[martin1905]

16 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Mauricio Pochettino has revealed that it wasn't his idea to sign Cole Palmer. The 21-year-old midfielder has signed a seven-year contract at Chelsea, which includes a club option for a further 12-months, after Manchester City accepted a £42.5million bid. 

Palmer is available for selection on Saturday afternoon when the Blues welcome Nottingham Forest to Stamford Bridge. With Christopher Nkunku expected to be out of action until the end of the year, the England Under-21 international could be thrown into the deep end and make his debut against Steve Cooper's side.

Ahead of the west Londoners' clash against Forest, Pochettino was asked for his thoughts on Palmer and the 51-year-old quickly heaped praise on co-sporting directors Laurence Stewart and Paul Winstanley for their work. Interestingly, the former City star emerged as a target for Chelsea on Wednesday morning and, within a couple of hours, the Blues managed to agree a deal. 

"I think the sporting director and the owner of course, but the sporting director it was his idea to add him to the squad," said Pochettino. "I think he’s fit for the project. Talented player, of course."

So one player, who happenes to be by far and away our best signing.

What about the others. Do you not think literally all clubs have a recruited department that buy players, some with little or no input from the manager?

Do you think Pep had any say in City signing Claudio Echeverri, their latest signing?

[Dwmh]

39 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Always been a bit of a myth that he's not good with young players, yes he might not play an 18 year old academy player but he's always improved young players. Always. Would need some serious research to see if there is anyone better than him but the amount of 21-24 year olds he has improved up to world class level is absurd.  Perhaps he's more perfect than even I first thought. 

The game before he joined Chelsea he played a 19 year old at CF.
And won.
 

45 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Jose was pretty good for a 24 year old Terry, 23 year old Petr Cech, 23 year old Joe Cole, 21 year old Arjen Robben, 23 year old Michael Essien.

But what does he say.  At 24 John Terry was already a Man.

[martin1905]

@ROTG also where does it say Poch didn't want him or had no say? He just says it wasn't his idea. Shock horror. Recruitment team doing their job and going to the manager with a potential new signing.

[Dwmh]

10 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

They were the better side, but not 4-1 better. Also, someone needs to tell the BBC that 4-1 is not a "thrashing" even when it's Liverpool.

they also hit the woodwork 4 times and our standout player was Pertovic.

[Mark Kelly]

Jose Mourinho as coach with John Terry in the Steve Clarke role .

Make it happen.

I don't suppose it will because the two boffins won't want to be questioned.

[martin1905]

4 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Jose Mourinho as coach with John Terry in the Steve Clarke role .

Make it happen.

I don't suppose it will because the two boffins won't want to be questioned.

I can't see anything other than Jose coming back. Just makes so much sense.

[Siidi]

28 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I ... Erm ... What?

You haven't engaged with anything I said, so I'm not sure why you've replied to me at all. Literally nobody would argue that players are and can only ever be as good as what they have already done. A near enough whole squad of players who haven't seen or done much of anything in high level senior football is a very, very different matter. 

Nothing about this club, players and coach included, is close to top 4 quality.

I am engaging with your argument, just that I disagree with you that appearance statistics are vital to the quality of a the players and the team. I respectfully argue that those stats are secondary.   When Michael Emenalo brought KDB  to Chelsea, he had little top level experience. Even by the time Guardiola made him central to his team, all he had was spells at Genk, Werder Breman and Wolfsburg- the equivalent of West Ham, Everton and Aston Villa. Virgil van Dyke was signed from Southampton.  Yet both players were immediately central to a team challenging for top spots. 

Pep was confident he could build a team around KDB, not because he had won some big trophies at big clubs. That is what is lacking in Pochettino. Every single player that played last night performed worse than in the reverse fixture at Stamford Bridge. Caceido now looks like less than half the player we fought for and signed. This is what we should be talking about. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

7 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I can't see anything other than Jose coming back. Just makes so much sense.

Which is precisely why it won’t happen.

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I can't see anything other than Jose coming back. Just makes so much sense.

I think the hole is so deep you are praying for a miracle.
First thing JM will say is "how big is the budget to fix the team"
but there is no budget to fix the team as we saw in September.    The budget is for punts on players for the future (Palmer was bought as a punt, not a team fixed).
Next he'll say "I can get you a top striker and all you'll have to is pay his wages".  And then we will have Lukaku upsetting the applecart with his wages.

The issues with this club are fundamental.  It is not designed to perform in the top quarter of the Prem.
The artifical financial engineering is the core problem.  The solution is to sell out to someone who can manage the club.  Unfortunately that will probably be an opportunist or an asset stripper.

Ken Bates is only 92.
 

[Sciatika]

29 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

they also hit the woodwork 4 times and our standout player was Pertovic.

Hitting the woodwork is missing the goal.

[Max Fowler]

The rumours are not flying in but from what I have read - the board are not entirely opposed to bringing in JM. So I don't think its an absolute impossibility, especially given the dearth of other current options.

[Mark Kelly]

Look at the positions here and tell me it's not Pochettino's fault 

[My Blood Is Blue]

18 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

The rumours are not flying in but from what I have read - the board are not entirely opposed to bringing in JM. So I don't think its an absolute impossibility, especially given the dearth of other current options.

He would scare the life out of our ‘sporting directors’ during the interview stage!

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

He would scare the life out of our ‘sporting directors’ during the interview stage!

Maybe Eghbali takes the reigns and decides we need a change of direction - who knows what is going on behind the scenes. If the wheels come off they must be smart enough to adjust the strategy - or maybe they are stubborn enough to continue.

[Dwmh]

24 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

Hitting the woodwork is missing the goal.

As is falling over without shooting or getting a Pen.  
However you look at it, on just goals, xg or on close opportunities we were royally thrashed.  

 

6 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Maybe Eghbali takes the reigns and decides we need a change of direction - who knows what is going on behind the scenes. If the wheels come off they must be smart enough to adjust the strategy - or maybe they are stubborn enough to continue.

I think they are pragmatic enough to quit.

[jasonb]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

I can't see anything other than Jose coming back. Just makes so much sense.

Press are linking him with Utd?