Chelsea 2 Wolverhampton Wanderers 4

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

Everton? Those lower table washouts? 

Read my post again. 

Next. 
 

[Mark Kelly]

8 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Read my post again. 

Next. 
 

Move my goalposts again. Next. 

[McCreadie]

38 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

100%. Ridiculous how many on here continue to defend the mass clear out of experienced players. Yes, many of them needed to be moved on eventually, but that happens a bit at a time. Doing it all at once has completely shafted us. Yes we need our experienced players to deliver as well - i.e. Sterling, Thiago - but that doesnt mean we should just get rid of them, especially when we lack experience all over the pitch.

Devil's advocate for a minute. All notwithstanding the squad makeup and lack of a no9 which is another thing...

The players that left in the summer that had experience that might have been of use were

Kova

Azpi

Kante

Mount

Havertz

Azpi and Kante were, to all intents and purposes,  done at this level (well not this level but you know what I mean)

Havertz - we were right to take the money for. I think few would disagree with that

A solution should have been found for Mount, but does anyone honestly think we would be faring any better with him here, because of his "experience" and his "leadership"? I'm not sure we would.

Kova is the one really, but hmm City come calling off the back of a treble. Difficult to say no. Very difficult not to let him go.

Of the other departures

Aubameyang, Ziyech and Lukaku were utter poison and would have caused way more damage than good in any scenario

Pulisic, Mendy, RLC, CHO and Kepa had been given a million opportunities and sorry, but none of them are leaders in any shape or form.

The rest were all failed loan army or children.

So when it comes down to it, I guess we are maybe arguing the toss over whether Azpi or Kante (both out of contract) could have been persuaded to donate another year to the cause. Maybe, although I think we had already agreed 12 months previously to let Azpi go back to Spain.

I think the real issue here is actually the leadership shortcomings of the experienced players that we do have. Silva, Sterling, James and Chilwell. Between them, they have won huge amount of important trophies in massively pressurised situations. It's easy to say without being on the inside and seeing what goes on, but I get a sense that these 4, Silva especially, could have done more from a purely leadership and demanding standards perspective.

I'm not sure Belle Silva having an opinion is at all helpful at the moment either. Poch is either going to get sacked or not and it wont be down to her social media output.  it just doesn't help the dressing room to have the proxy captain's wife implying publicly, that the coach should be fired. 

 

[east lower]

10 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Devil's advocate for a minute. All notwithstanding the squad makeup and lack of a no9 which is another thing...

The players that left in the summer that had experience that might have been of use were

Kova

Azpi

Kante

Mount

Havertz

Azpi and Kante were, to all intents and purposes,  done at this level (well not this level but you know what I mean)

Havertz - we were right to take the money for. I think few would disagree with that

A solution should have been found for Mount, but does anyone honestly think we would be faring any better with him here, because of his "experience" and his "leadership"? I'm not sure we would.

Kova is the one really, but hmm City come calling off the back of a treble. Difficult to say no. Very difficult not to let him go.

Of the other departures

Aubameyang, Ziyech and Lukaku were utter poison and would have caused way more damage than good in any scenario

Pulisic, Mendy, RLC, CHO and Kepa had been given a million opportunities and sorry, but none of them are leaders in any shape or form.

The rest were all failed loan army or children.

So when it comes down to it, I guess we are maybe arguing the toss over whether Azpi or Kante (both out of contract) could have been persuaded to donate another year to the cause. Maybe, although I think we had already agreed 12 months previously to let Azpi go back to Spain.

I think the real issue here is actually the leadership shortcomings of the experienced players that we do have. Silva, Sterling, James and Chilwell. Between them, they have won huge amount of important trophies in massively pressurised situations. It's easy to say without being on the inside and seeing what goes on, but I get a sense that these 4, Silva especially, could have done more from a purely leadership and demanding standards perspective.

I'm not sure Belle Silva having an opinion is at all helpful at the moment either. Poch is either going to get sacked or not and it wont be down to her social media output.  it just doesn't help the dressing room to have the proxy captain's wife implying publicly, that the coach should be fired. 

 

The biggest loss of all and perhaps a catalyst for a lot of discontent from Tuchel and the then squad was the departure of Antonio Rudiger - a leader and motivator. 
 

I can recall a game at Arsenal, I think it was the one where Conte was coach and we were well beaten in the first half, that made Conte go for the back 3 with the two overlapping full- backs and we drew the second half. He (Rudiger) came right up to the crowd to deal with the dissenters and then reason with them. 

[ROTG]

31 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Move my goalposts again. Next. 

No goalposts  moved only a reference to the type of player sadly missed by the recruitment department. 
 

over to you

[McCreadie]

2 minutes ago, east lower said:

The biggest loss of all and perhaps a catalyst for a lot of discontent from Tuchel and the then squad was the departure of Antonio Rudiger - a leader and motivator. 
 

I can recall a game at Arsenal, I think it was the one where Conte was coach and we were well beaten in the first half, that made Conte go for the back 3 with the two overlapping full- backs and we drew the second half. He (Rudiger) came right up to the crowd to deal with the dissenters and then reason with them. 

I agree, but dont really count that as part of this argument as he was gone before TB arrived

[east lower]

Just now, McCreadie said:

I agree, but dont really count that as part of this argument as he was gone before TB arrived

He was and his departure may well have been as a result of us not being able to negotiate his new contract because of the sanctions imposed by the UK Government (but also championed by the opposition).

But in my view, we keep Rudiger and a number of the losses of players that we may have wanted to keep might not have occurred in Year 1 of the new owners tenure.

[Max Fowler]

40 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

Devil's advocate for a minute. All notwithstanding the squad makeup and lack of a no9 which is another thing...

The players that left in the summer that had experience that might have been of use were

Kova

Azpi

Kante

Mount

Havertz

Azpi and Kante were, to all intents and purposes,  done at this level (well not this level but you know what I mean)

Havertz - we were right to take the money for. I think few would disagree with that

A solution should have been found for Mount, but does anyone honestly think we would be faring any better with him here, because of his "experience" and his "leadership"? I'm not sure we would.

Kova is the one really, but hmm City come calling off the back of a treble. Difficult to say no. Very difficult not to let him go.

Of the other departures

Aubameyang, Ziyech and Lukaku were utter poison and would have caused way more damage than good in any scenario

Pulisic, Mendy, RLC, CHO and Kepa had been given a million opportunities and sorry, but none of them are leaders in any shape or form.

The rest were all failed loan army or children.

So when it comes down to it, I guess we are maybe arguing the toss over whether Azpi or Kante (both out of contract) could have been persuaded to donate another year to the cause. Maybe, although I think we had already agreed 12 months previously to let Azpi go back to Spain.

I think the real issue here is actually the leadership shortcomings of the experienced players that we do have. Silva, Sterling, James and Chilwell. Between them, they have won huge amount of important trophies in massively pressurised situations. It's easy to say without being on the inside and seeing what goes on, but I get a sense that these 4, Silva especially, could have done more from a purely leadership and demanding standards perspective.

I'm not sure Belle Silva having an opinion is at all helpful at the moment either. Poch is either going to get sacked or not and it wont be down to her social media output.  it just doesn't help the dressing room to have the proxy captain's wife implying publicly, that the coach should be fired. 

 

I am sorry @McCreadie and @Mark Kelly. You can come up with convoluted reasons why all our players should have been sold, but the simple reality of the situation is that we sold nearly all of our experienced players too quickly and did not replace them. That is a simple reality that does not need to be overcomplicated - you do not sell all your experienced players all at once and not replace them.

Notice how Real Madrid have not sold Modric or Kroos - you could come up with convoluted reasons why they are past it but the simple reality is - WE HAVE CLOSE TO ZERO CHARACTERS, LEADERS OR EXPERIENCE IN THE DRESSING ROOM!

The idea that Thiago should have done more - I am sorry - is just bs.

The whole project is broken and Thiago understands that. You cannot carry a sinking ship singlehandedly. Okay - players can always do more - but Thiago cannot carry the dressing room by himself. 

We need experienced players all over the pitch and that is the fault of the owners! End of. If the previous experienced players should have been sold, then so be it. Phase them out a couple every season - NOT ALL OF THEM AT ONCE!

It really is simple - no other club replaces all their experienced players at once. Yet we are trying to come up with arguments why really we should have sold all our experienced players at once and that was understandable and the few experienced players who are left are to blame. It's an absolute nonsense.

Edited February 6 by Max Fowler

[Max Fowler]

20 minutes ago, east lower said:

He was and his departure may well have been as a result of us not being able to negotiate his new contract because of the sanctions imposed by the UK Government (but also championed by the opposition).

But in my view, we keep Rudiger and a number of the losses of players that we may have wanted to keep might not have occurred in Year 1 of the new owners tenure.

The irony is that Rudiger would have fallen foul of the criteria that @McCreadie and @Mark Kelly (apologies for the callouts again and slightly emotional reaction above chaps!!!!!) are using had Tuchel not turned him into the player he was.

"Rudiger was sellable - we might as well have cashed in on him"

Then Tuchel turned him into an absolute smasher aged 27 - and crucially he was that old when Tuchel took over.

Yet we have about 2 players in the 27-32 bracket....

[McCreadie]

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Yet we are trying to come up with arguments why really we should have sold all our experienced players at once 

I did qualify my previous post by saying I was playing Devil's advocate...

Actually, I was trying to come up with a reasoned argument for which of the departed individuals would actually have benefitted this squad if they were still here. I missed Jorginho off that list and he is a possible, but he is hardly the type of character you go into battle with. Kova, but, like I said, City... Kante, but he was out of contract. To be honest, it didn't do us much good having any or all of this lot around last season did it? (no disrespect meant to Azpi). That group of 4 I mentioned have won a bucketload of trophies. They know what standards need to be set at this level. There is some accountability there.

[McCreadie]

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

The irony is that Rudiger would have fallen foul of the criteria that @McCreadie and @Mark Kelly (apologies for the callouts again and slightly emotional reaction above chaps!!!!!) are using had Tuchel not turned him into the player he was.

"Rudiger was sellable - we might as well have cashed in on him"

Then Tuchel turned him into an absolute smasher aged 27 - and crucially he was that old when Tuchel took over.

Yet we have about 2 players in the 27-32 bracket....

Yeah that's wrong. I would have sawn my leg off to keep Rudiger.

And that's not a quote of mine...

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, McCreadie said:

I did qualify my previous post by saying I was playing Devil's advocate...

Actually, I was trying to come up with a reasoned argument for which of the departed individuals would actually have benefitted this squad if they were still here. I missed Jorginho off that list and he is a possible, but he is hardly the type of character you go into battle with. Kova, but, like I said, City... Kante, but he was out of contract. To be honest, it didn't do us much good having any or all of this lot around last season did it? (no disrespect meant to Azpi). That group of 4 I mentioned have won a bucketload of trophies. They know what standards need to be set at this level. There is some accountability there.

Yeah apologies - too much coffee today!

Ultimately I just disagree and have had this out with Mark many times that the experienced players last season were the problem. They are only individual players and everything was absolute chaos around them. 

You can argue that they downed tools - but ultimately if you want to get rid you have to replace them.

I have defended Sterling to the hilt but have to also admit his performances recently have been garbage.

Nonetheless the answer isn't just about "going into battle" - it's about having players who have been there and done it before. Even having Azpi around as an example in the dressing room - but that's not the model of our owners.

[Dwmh]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

100%. Ridiculous how many on here continue to defend the mass clear out of experienced players. Yes, many of them needed to be moved on eventually, but that happens a bit at a time. Doing it all at once has completely shafted us. Yes we need our experienced players to deliver as well - i.e. Sterling, Thiago - but that doesnt mean we should just get rid of them, especially when we lack experience all over the pitch.

Yes it is the ex-girlfriend theory, a useful psychological trick, but best kept to oneself.
But 1.  It is not clear how much they were pushed out and how much that ran (I think the latter).
2.  It may have been inevitable by early 2023, but in Summer 2022 the Business Plan clearly was about buying players with experience to maintain the 22/23 side (74 points, remember that) rather than over turn it.
 

48 minutes ago, east lower said:

The biggest loss of all and perhaps a catalyst for a lot of discontent from Tuchel and the then squad was the departure of Antonio Rudiger - a leader and motivator. 

As someone mentioned, this happened before TB and probably before Feb 2022.
 

[Chelsea_Matt]

One thing is for sure. There’s zero team spirit on the pitch and zero identity off it. The various briefings would appear that there’s also zero team spirit in the halls of SB.

I’m not saying RA and his team got it right all the time - but I remember someone who worked with CFC telling me that the place was well-run by some very competent, intelligent people. I always felt that while we made mistakes as everyone does, as all clubs do, there was a very good operation at the heart of Chelsea. And one with the best intentions, too. 

No vulture capitalists to be found! 

[east lower]

18 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

As someone mentioned, this happened before TB and probably before Feb 2022.
 

Rudiger announced he was leaving the club on the 20th May 2022. The deal to buy Chelsea was ratified and confirmed on the 30th May 2022. 
 

Real Madrid confirmed the signing of him on the 2nd June 2022.

[Mark Kelly]

22 minutes ago, east lower said:

Rudiger announced he was leaving the club on the 20th May 2022. The deal to buy Chelsea was ratified and confirmed on the 30th May 2022. 
 

Real Madrid confirmed the signing of him on the 2nd June 2022.

He also said at the time that Marina hadn't offered him a new contract so I honestly don't think we can lay that calamity on Boehly 

[Alex]

On 04/02/2024 at 19:50, JaneB said:

I feel really sorry for you on the sunny French Riviera 🤣

It might all sound like fun, but there are serious issues to contend with here like the wife insisting on sharing a bottle of rosé with meals when I want red and the fact we have to come home next week.

[east lower]

Just now, Mark Kelly said:

He also said at the time that Marina hadn't offered him a new contract so I honestly don't think we can lay that calamity on Boehly 

There’s lots to blame Boehly for, but I’d agree he and his cohorts shoulder no blame for Rudiger’s departure. The UK Government might though, the sanctions were imposed in March 2022, so even if there were thoughts to get him a new deal they couldn’t have done so. Didn’t stop them doing so prior to that.

[Chelsea_Matt]

2 minutes ago, east lower said:

There’s lots to blame Boehly for, but I’d agree he and his cohorts shoulder no blame for Rudiger’s departure. The UK Government might though, the sanctions were imposed in March 2022, so even if there were thoughts to get him a new deal they couldn’t have done so. Didn’t stop them doing so prior to that.

Maybe they did and Rudiger wanted too much. We’ll never know. Super player though. 💯🙌🏻

[east lower]

Just now, Chelsea_Matt said:

Maybe they did and Rudiger wanted too much. We’ll never know. Super player though. 💯🙌🏻

There was lots of ‘chatter’ at the time that he wanted a significant sum of money, if I remember correctly a wage near that of James’ new deal. 
 

Again just chatter, but I don’t think he was one of the better paid players at the time and felt he deserved parity with those that were.

[chara]

Just now, east lower said:

There was lots of ‘chatter’ at the time that he wanted a significant sum of money, if I remember correctly a wage near that of James’ new deal. 
 

Again just chatter, but I don’t think he was one of the better paid players at the time and felt he deserved parity with those that were.

I think that makes as much sense as part of the issue as anything....often as not player/club "negotiatiuons" drag out a bit as both sides seek the best deal they can accept. 

Unfortunately  HMG closed down the whole business structure of the Club and regardless of individual player issues from then on we were (and still are) F****ed:

[Chelsea_Matt]

6 minutes ago, east lower said:

There was lots of ‘chatter’ at the time that he wanted a significant sum of money, if I remember correctly a wage near that of James’ new deal. 
 

Again just chatter, but I don’t think he was one of the better paid players at the time and felt he deserved parity with those that were.

I saw he wanted £400k. But that could be nonsense. 

[xceleryx]

11 hours ago, east lower said:

Like Jorginho perhaps? It would be interesting to know the absolute truth and reasons behind the clearing of the decks of Mount, Jorginho, and the CL winning players.

Not to be that guy but I did say that Jorginho should've been kept and that we'd miss him more than people may have liked to believe. That said, I do understand that if we had no intent on renewing his contract then getting something was probably better than nothing at all - even if we did miss him during the second half of last season. 

As for clearing the decks, I still believe it was a combination of contractual situations being the main denominator and not necessarily wanting to facilitate wages that exceeded ability, form, or both. Rudiger is the only one we truly miss the most IMO and that happened before current ownership arrived.