Crystal Palace 1 Chelsea 3

[paulw66]

9 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

Wonderful player and amazing to have had him here but time waits for no one. 

Yes, I am conscious I am coming across as though I don't rate him, or don't think he has been brilliant (far better than I ever expected) for us. He has been. 

[martin1905]

47 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

This wasn't directed specifically at you at Martin - more generally you can see this a recurring conversation among our fans.

It's a recurring conversation because it is an issue.

47 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I disagree that he is incapable of recycling the ball quicker. In fact, as I said, he's actually "quicker" than almost all of our players on the ball because he's so composed and accurate with his passing.

But that's just plain wrong. He walks with the ball, every single time he gets it,  takes far too many touches and the biggest problem is he is the outlet,  became he's so good on the ball. He literally sets the tempo. 

Doesn't matter how composed and accurate his passing is, he's nearly 40. 

47 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

His slow recycling was a mentality problem shared by the entire team in the first half. It wasn't entirely due to the tactics shown in that graphic, but at least it sketches out different reasons why that might of happened. As Poch said in his press conference, we were so flat in the first half - but that wasn't down to Silva. Everyone takes responsibility - Thiago more so due to his experience? Sure. But his passing and control is not slowed down by his age.

It's not game specific Max, please don't get caught up on one game or one graphic, it's been a problem all season.

Yes, we as a team move the ball far too slowly and everyone is responsible but the big difference with Thiago and everyone else is that he is the outlet, he sets the tone and he is incapable of playing a high tempo. 

I'm not sure why it's even being debated, it's so blatantly obvious. He's nearly 40, he doesn't even have the quickness of thought anymore let alone the physical ability.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

It's a recurring conversation because it is an issue.

But that's just plain wrong. He walks with the ball, every single time he gets it,  takes far too many touches and the biggest problem is he is the outlet,  became he's so good on the ball. He literally sets the tempo. 

Doesn't matter how composed and accurate his passing is, he's nearly 40. 

It's not game specific Max, please don't get caught up on one game or one graphic, it's been a problem all season.

Yes, we as a team move the ball far too slowly and everyone is responsible but the big difference with Thiago and everyone else is that he is the outlet, he sets the tone and he is incapable of playing a high tempo. 

I'm not sure why it's even being debated, it's so blatantly obvious. He's nearly 40, he doesn't even have the quickness of thought anymore let alone the physical ability.

We're obviously seeing the game differently then Martin.

I think you are confusing Thiago's style and performance the other night with his age. He has always had a casual look on the ball - that Brazilian style that sets him apart from the likes of JT. But here's some stats to prove it:

• Last season he had the 8th highest pass completion percentage in the Premier League with 90.9%. (above any Chelsea player)

This season -

• He has the highest total number of passes completed in our squad with 1630, also with the highest completion rate of 94.3%.
• In terms of long passes he is only behind Enzo in terms of total completions and attempts, with the 5th highest completion rate in the squad with 78.5%. That compares to Badishille on 67.6%, Disasi on 52.6% and Colwill on 43.8%.
• He has made the most medium passes in the squad, with 855. He has the highest completion rate with 96.7%.
• He has made the third highest short passes in the squad, behind Gallagher and Disasi. He has the 2nd highest completion rate (only behind Nkunku - with 96.1%).
• Only on progressive passive is Disasi ahead with 85 to Silva's 80 - Colwill has 68 and Badiashille 25 with limited game time.

IMO you have a point to be made if you focus on the defensive cost that playing Silva incurs. As others have mentioned, we cannot as easily leave him exposed in a back 4 and may need to adjust to him playing. 

But it's also worth noting that Thiago has the highest number of blocked shots in our team - and its not surprising. (20 to Disasi's 12 to Colwill's 8). He still has world class anticipation and invariably is always in the right place at the right time.

The idea "he doesn't have the quickness of thought" is an absolute nonsense. As I have shown, he is still the most capable and progressive passing defender in the team. He dominates all stats - he actually makes more passes than the other defenders of all types, short, medium and long and does so more accurately. 

He had a bad half the other night on the ball. So did the entire team. Thiago "sets the tone" because he is better on the ball than any of our other defenders. They slow our game down because they are less capable than him a at distributing it.

We are agreement that he needs phasing out, but we are actually going to badly miss his ball skills. You have things upside down and needn't double down on his playing ability (rather focus on the physical) to make an argument for change.

Edited February 14 by Max Fowler

[xceleryx]

21 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

We're obviously seeing the game differently then Martin.

I think you are confusing Thiago's style and performance the other night with his age. He has always had a casual look on the ball - that Brazilian style that sets him apart from the likes of JT. But here's some stats to prove it:

• Last season he had the 8th highest pass completion percentage in the Premier League with 90.9%. (above any Chelsea player)

This season -

• He has the highest total number of passes completed in our squad with 1630, also with the highest completion rate of 94.3%.
• In terms of long passes he is only behind Enzo in terms of total completions and attempts, with the 5th highest completion rate in the squad with 78.5%. That compares to Badishille on 67.6%, Disasi on 52.6% and Colwill on 43.8%.
• He has made the most medium passes in the squad, with 855. He has the highest completion rate with 96.7%.
• He has made the third highest short passes in the squad, behind Gallagher and Disasi. He has the 2nd highest completion rate (only behind Nkunku - with 96.1%).
• Only on progressive passive is Disasi ahead with 85 to Silva's 80 - Colwill has 68 and Badiashille 25 with limited game time.

IMO you have a point to be made if you focus on the defensive cost that playing Silva incurs. As others have mentioned, we cannot as easily leave him exposed in a back 4 and may need to adjust to him playing. 

But it's also worth noting that Thiago has the highest number of blocked shots in our team - and its not surprising. (20 to Disasi's 12 to Colwill's 8). He still has world class anticipation and invariably is always in the right place at the right time.

The idea "he doesn't have the quickness of thought" is an absolute nonsense. As I have shown, he is still the most capable and progressive passing defender in the team. He dominates all stats - he actually makes more passes than the other defenders of all types, short, medium and long and does so more accurately. 

He had a bad half the other night on the ball. So did the entire team. Thiago "sets the tone" because he is better on the ball than any of our other defenders. They slow our game down because they are less capable than him a at distributing it.

We are agreement that he needs phasing out, but we are actually going to badly miss his ball skills. You have things upside down and needn't double down on his playing ability (rather focus on the physical) to make an argument for change.

Thiago Silva averages (fbref) 3.51 progressive passes per 90, which is in the 51st percentile league wide this season - aka bang average. 

The rest of his passing stats read well on paper but realistically they should given the type of passes he's often making, where there's a lot of recycling the ball along the backline. 

For reference VVD is in the 84th percentile with 5.16 progressive passers per 90, Konate is the league leader with 6.96 per 90. Dias has 6.20 per 90, and someone like Lewis Dunk has 5.37 per 90. 

This is ultimately the big difference maker. It's hard to judge Colwill and Badiashile in this area because they've either played mainly out of position or just not enough to get a good sample size. Although Colwill last season at Brighton was in the 92nd percentile with 5.16 progressive passes per 90.

Its an issue area nonetheless.

 

[martin1905]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

We're obviously seeing the game differently then Martin.

I think you are confusing Thiago's style and performance the other night with his age.

Didn't read the rest.

Can't say it enough, I'm not talking about the other night.

[Max Fowler]

15 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

The rest of his passing stats read well on paper but realistically they should given the type of passes he's often making, where there's a lot of recycling the ball along the backline. 

I've also shown that he completes more long and medium passes with better accuracy than any of our other defenders. You may have a point with the total number of progressive passes, but he also has the 8 best progressive passive distance per 90 among all defenders. He may make fewer total progressive passes, but they are longer and more accurate overall.

The fact that none of our defenders are completing a lot of them suggests that this is a tactical issue. Also explains why Brighton, Liverpool, and City players feature highly (all highly progressive teams).

The idea that Thiago is incapable of progressive passes because he is old just doesn't add up with the stats. Also if Poch was telling Thiago to be more progressive with his passes and he wasn't, you would see Poch shouting at him from the sidelines.

I am not saying we wouldn't be more dynamic with say a VVD in the team - clearly we would. But the idea that Thiago "sets the tone" for our slow passing just doesn't add up. Again - he completes more passes with more accuracy than all our other defenders.

 

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, martin1905 said:

Didn't read the rest.

Can't say it enough, I'm not talking about the other night.

Okay forget the other night - then read the rest Martin.

There are plenty of stats there to show that over the season he is doing a lot of great work on the ball.

[Ham]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Okay forget the other night - then read the rest Martin.

There are plenty of stats there to show that over the season he is doing a lot of great work on the ball.

I don't think that's ever been in doubt. He had received adulation and respect throughout his Chelsea career.

I think the issue that has arisen in the past couple of games is that we have looked better and more progressive without him. 

His passing stats are massively padded by the 200 sideways passes per game, all of which are completed. 

I agree on the long passes that he's probably one of our best 3 and his completion rate there is probably hindered by not having Salah etc on the other end of them. VVD, TAA and Robertson have been spoilt in this regard with their hail Mary passes that end up as assists.  

Silva is and has been a fantastic player for us but sadly we look a better unit without him.  

We're better off being more progressive and scoring more goals than trying to concede less.  That hasn't been working with him for sure.  

[Dwmh]

3 hours ago, Holymoly said:

I don't know Droy, the whole booking players for celebrating "too much" or removing their shirts so that the sponsors lose screen time is anathema for me in the first place. The fact that the introduction of VAR has made even the scoring of goals a delayed response for the fans has gone a further step down the destruction of the game. Maybe the fact we were "let off" by the letter of the law is more a commonsense approach by the referee. The celebrations were hardly an incitement to violence but rather an exhuberant expression of unbridled joy by both players and fans. Let's hope that is never removed from the game.

I partly agree, but the minimum we should demand is consistency and they have been booking players for actually touching members of the crowd for about 20 years (I recall Robben being booked for it).

Removing shirts (Fernandez recently) i'm er on the fence about.  But going bare chest in front of an oppo crowd is certainly provocative, and I recognise that some are less tolerant about a political message revealed than i am.  So there is the rule and it should be applied consistently or changed.

Going into the crowd though, or just leaning over and hugging fans seems pretty clear cut though.  Crowds aren't as difficult as they once were, and front row seats i presume come at premium prices now.  But all the same it can't be condoned during the game (though perhaps post match).

Maybe we were "let off" by a commonsense approach by the referee.
In which case we should give thanks,  take note and use that to offset the occasions where refs don't do that (or use a commonsense approach to other clubs).

But the real message is the reason for the table below is NOT PMGOL but CFC players (and coaching).

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/total_yel_card?se=578

 

77 and 9th in all 22/23
63 and 10th in all 21/22

[Max Fowler]

13 minutes ago, Ham said:

I don't think that's ever been in doubt. He had received adulation and respect throughout his Chelsea career.

I think the issue that has arisen in the past couple of games is that we have looked better and more progressive without him. 

His passing stats are massively padded by the 200 sideways passes per game, all of which are completed. 

I agree on the long passes that he's probably one of our best 3 and his completion rate there is probably hindered by not having Salah etc on the other end of them. VVD, TAA and Robertson have been spoilt in this regard with their hail Mary passes that end up as assists.  

Silva is and has been a fantastic player for us but sadly we look a better unit without him.  

We're better off being more progressive and scoring more goals than trying to concede less.  That hasn't been working with him for sure.  

Again, I have shown that his passing stats are not padded by sideways passes. He has more long passes and medium passes than any of our defenders, and more progressive passing distance than any of them too.

The point that you should all be focusing on his defensive attributes, his physical capacities etc. Our being more dynamic is not caused by him being a slow passer, but it might be because of his lack of pace, making up for his positioning etc.

Also, I would point out that the last two games are an extremely small sample size and again - I don't think we "looked better" without Thiago against Palace, we just had a shocking first half overall with him coincidentally in the side.

And Aston Villa I am predicting is a game we will not be replicating with or without Thiago for the rest of the season.

We've gone through these conversations a few times this season. Then Thiago puts in a 9 out of 10 performance or three on the bounce and we wonder what the fuss was all about. The same is true of Connor Gallagher.

The irony is that some of the people arguing for Thiago to go are trying to be supportive of Poch, so shouldn't we trust the manager's viewpoint and why he keeps picking him? If he drops him we can assume Poch knows what fits his system best.

Edited February 14 by Max Fowler

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

Again, I have shown that his passing stats are not padded by sideways passes. He has more long passes and medium passes than any of our defenders, and more progressive passing distance than any of them too.

The point that you should all be focusing on his defensive attributes, his physical capacities etc. Our being more dynamic is not caused by him being a slow passer, but it might be because of his lack of pace, making up for his positioning etc.

Also, I would point out that the last two games are an extremely small sample size and again - I don't think we "looked better" without Thiago against Palace, we just had a shocking first half overall with him coincidentally in the side.

And Aston Villa I am predicting is a game we will not be replicating with or without Thiago for the rest of the season.

We've gone through these conversations a few times this season. Then Thiago puts in a 9 out of 10 performance or three on the bounce and we wonder what the fuss was all about. The same is true of Connor Gallagher.

The irony is that some of the people arguing for Thiago to go are trying to be supportive of Poch, so shouldn't we trust the manager's viewpoint and why he keeps picking him? If he drops him we can assume Poch knows what fits his system best.

Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick here Max but aren't they arguing that he's too slow of pass not that he cannot pass?

[Ham]

3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Again, I have shown that his passing stats are not padded by sideways passes. He has more long passes and medium passes than any of our defenders, and more progressive passing distance than any of them too.

The point that you should all be focusing on his defensive attributes, his physical capacities etc. Our being more dynamic is not caused by him being a slow passer, but it might be because of his lack of pace, making up for his positioning etc.

Also, I would point out that the last two games are an extremely small sample size and again - I don't think we "looked better" without Thiago against Palace, we just had a shocking first half overall with him coincidentally in the side.

And Aston Villa I am predicting is a game we will not be replicating with or without Thiago for the rest of the season.

We've gone through these conversations a few times this season. Then Thiago puts in a 9 out of 10 performance or three on the bounce and we wonder what the fuss was all about. The same is true of Connor Gallagher.

The irony is that some of the people arguing for Thiago to go are trying to be supportive of Poch, so shouldn't we trust the manager's viewpoint and why he keeps picking him? If he drops him we can assume Poch knows what fits his system best.

All I can say is focus less on the stats and use your eyes to gauge Chelsea as a unit with our without him. 

It's not disrespectful to say "it's time".  He's nearly 40 in the PL.  He's a freak of nature but come on. 

[Max Fowler]

3 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick here Max but aren't they arguing that he's too slow of pass not that he cannot pass?

But if he was too slow of pass he would have made less passes of all types. Whereas he has actually made more passes of all types (long, medium, short) than our other defenders*, and easily covered more progressive distance with his passes overall.

*Except total number of progressive passes where he is a bit behind Disasi. 

[Max Fowler]

4 minutes ago, Ham said:

All I can say is focus less on the stats and use your eyes to gauge Chelsea as a unit with our without him. 

It's not disrespectful to say "it's time".  He's nearly 40 in the PL.  He's a freak of nature but come on. 

I never said it was disrespectful - I just said it was untrue. The claims being made is that we are much better without him - I don't think that adds up and if it did I would say drop him. I can see the argument that having a pacier defender might benefit our play, but don't you think Poch would have done that already if it was so bleeding obvious? 

I would actually be much more inclined to agree that we would be a better team overall without him because of his physical limitations (even though I don't overall agree), than some of the claims being made about his slow play, mental and technical deficiencies. On the eye, they strike me as patently untrue - and the stats are watertight in backing that up.

[Max Fowler]

Ultimately three of the people challenging the inclusion of Silva (@paulw66, @xceleryx, and @Ham) barely have a word to say about the experience crisis in the squad. If you do think it is a problem at all chaps, you either keep it to yourselves or frame it in context of the broader project. 

Therefore I can't help feeling that you are making Thiago a scapegoat for the failings of the board. What is one of the main reasons Poch is still picking Silva at all - because he adds much needed experience, international quality and leadership to the team.

Again - this isn't about tarnishing Silva's legacy, but investigating the context in which Poch keeps picking him. That context is not one, as has been implied, where our failure to win or stop conceding is due to Thiago Silva.

Our failure to win is because we don't have enough experienced players throughout the squad - period. You should be turning your considerable qualities to holding the board's feet to the fire on that, because changing Thiago for Levi or Guehi is not going to make very much difference to this squad. In fact it's more likely to cause us to go further backwards than forwards.

Edited February 14 by Max Fowler

[paulw66]

12 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Ultimately three of the people challenging the inclusion of Silva (@paulw66, @xceleryx, and @Ham) barely have a word to say about the experience crisis in the squad. If you do think it is a problem at all chaps, you either keep it to yourselves or frame it in context of the broader project. 

Therefore I can't help feeling that you are making Thiago a scapegoat for the failings of the board. What is one of the main reasons Poch is still picking Silva at all - because he adds much needed experience, international quality and leadership to the team.

Again - this isn't about tarnishing Silva's legacy, but investigating the context in which Poch keeps picking him. That context is not one, as has been implied, where our failure to win or stop conceding is due to Thiago Silva.

Our failure to win is because we don't have enough experienced players throughout the squad - period. You should be turning your considerable qualities to holding the board's feet to the fire on that, because changing Thiago for Levi or Guehi is not going to make very much difference to this squad. In fact it's more likely to cause us to go further backwards than forwards.

 

I have said repeatedly (see my post this morning on the transfer thread) that we need more experience. At the same time that doesn't mean we should be picking a 39 year old.

The "experience" we lack is the 25-33 sort of bracket

We're going around and around here, but IMO, we simply look better without him in the team, irrespective of the age of the other players, the failings of the board, or any other random subject. 

[Max Fowler]

15 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

I have said repeatedly (see my post this morning on the transfer thread) that we need more experience. At the same time that doesn't mean we should be picking a 39 year old.

The "experience" we lack is the 25-33 sort of bracket

We're going around and around here, but IMO, we simply look better without him in the team, irrespective of the age of the other players, the failings of the board, or any other random subject. 

"I think the strategy will continue with signing younger players though, even if I / we don't entirely agree with it."

That's hardly holding the board's feet to the fire, Paul. You who have supported Poch should understand why he's picking a 39 year old - because he's barely been given anyone in the 25-33 year old bracket. 

[paulw66]

1 minute ago, Max Fowler said:

"I think the strategy will continue with signing younger players though, even if I / we don't entirely agree with it."

That's hardly holding the board's feet to the fire, Paul. You who have supported Poch should understand why he's picking a 39 year old - because he's barely been given anyone in the 25-33 year old bracket. 

Until recently, there has been  little choice. Chilwell and Cucurella injured, meaning Colwill required at left back, and Badiashile out injured. 

I understand it.

We're going around and around here, but IMO, we simply look better without him in the team

 

[Ham]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

"I think the strategy will continue with signing younger players though, even if I / we don't entirely agree with it."

That's hardly holding the board's feet to the fire, Paul. You who have supported Poch should understand why he's picking a 39 year old - because he's barely been given anyone in the 25-33 year old bracket. 

 

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

Until recently, there has been  little choice. Chilwell and Cucurella injured, meaning Colwill required at left back, and Badiashile out injured. 

I understand it.

We're going around and around here, but IMO, we simply look better without him in the team

 

I was about to respond that Wes Fofana would have been first choice RCB for the past year if available and Silva would have been back up CB where needed. 

People forget just how good WF was for Leicester.  

[Ham]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Ultimately three of the people challenging the inclusion of Silva (@paulw66, @xceleryx, and @Ham) barely have a word to say about the experience crisis in the squad. If you do think it is a problem at all chaps, you either keep it to yourselves or frame it in context of the broader project. 

Therefore I can't help feeling that you are making Thiago a scapegoat for the failings of the board. What is one of the main reasons Poch is still picking Silva at all - because he adds much needed experience, international quality and leadership to the team.

Again - this isn't about tarnishing Silva's legacy, but investigating the context in which Poch keeps picking him. That context is not one, as has been implied, where our failure to win or stop conceding is due to Thiago Silva.

Our failure to win is because we don't have enough experienced players throughout the squad - period. You should be turning your considerable qualities to holding the board's feet to the fire on that, because changing Thiago for Levi or Guehi is not going to make very much difference to this squad. In fact it's more likely to cause us to go further backwards than forwards.

I should add that I have no feeling either way for Poch.  I've slaughtered him on here. If he goes or stays, I couldn't care less. 

Just because I think we looked better without Silva recently doesn't mean I have to have an agenda.  

If we'd been defensively sound with Silva on the pitch in recent months you'd have cause to maybe question his omission but we've often looked shambolic and trapped on the back foot.  

 

 

[Max Fowler]

17 minutes ago, Ham said:

I was about to respond that Wes Fofana would have been first choice RCB for the past year if available and Silva would have been back up CB where needed. 

People forget just how good WF was for Leicester.  

A little bit of whataboutery in that, and arguably Fofana is the most glaring example of an injury prone player being signed who was a big risk. Rumours were Badiashille could also have been moved on, so I fancy Silva would have retained his place whatever happens this season.

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

 

I was about to respond that Wes Fofana would have been first choice RCB for the past year if available and Silva would have been back up CB where needed. 

People forget just how good WF was for Leicester.  

Wes Fofana hasn't played since June Internationals and his ACL means he was never in contention for this season. No doubt if he had been fit in August we wouldn't have signed Disasi on Aug  4th.
So the real missed player is probably Chalobah who last played Aug 3rd (same date as Nkumku's last game pre-long term injury)
All well in advance of the September window closing.  The only late departures were CHO and loanees like Lukaku and Ziyech who can be presumed to be planned loans and Kepa and we now have 4 keepers..

We have the squad that board wanted, they had a month's notice of how small and inexperienced it was going to be.  

[Ham]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Wes Fofana hasn't played since June Internationals and his ACL means he was never in contention for this season. No doubt if he had been fit in August we wouldn't have signed Disasi on Aug  4th.
So the real missed player is probably Chalobah who last played Aug 3rd (same date as Nkumku's last game pre-long term injury)
All well in advance of the September window closing.  The only late departures were CHO and loanees like Lukaku and Ziyech who can be presumed to be planned loans and Kepa and we now have 4 keepers..

We have the squad that board wanted, they had a month's notice of how small and inexperienced it was going to be.  

I said "in the last year" not this season. 

When bought, he was meant to be our first choice RCB. 

Injuries changed all of that.  That was my point.

Disasi was bought as a RCB but I'm fairly certain that this was with the intention of one day having Wes Fofana as his rival, not Silva, given his age.

 

[Dwmh]

11 minutes ago, Ham said:

Disasi was bought as a RCB but I'm fairly certain that this was with the intention of one day having Wes Fofana as his rival, not Silva, given his age.

 

You don't think it was because Fofana was known to be out for the season?
He did the ACL some time weeks before we bought Disasi who was unusual amongst our summer 2023 purchases.  Only Disasi, Sanchez and Nkunku (all 25 in the summer) could be described as players for this season rather than projects for the longer term or at least investments in youth.
I doubt Disasi would have been bought if it were thought that the 23 yo Fofana would be available.  If he was always in the plan as an alternate for Silva then why did we do nothing when we lost 2 CBs in Fofana and Chalobah?

It seems to me a fit Fofana would have left us in exactly the same situation.
Anyway I certainly say that Silva was not expected to have played 29 starts already.  But we got left short handed all over the pitch except at keeper.
 

[Ham]

14 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

You don't think it was because Fofana was known to be out for the season?
He did the ACL some time weeks before we bought Disasi who was unusual amongst our summer 2023 purchases.  Only Disasi, Sanchez and Nkunku (all 25 in the summer) could be described as players for this season rather than projects for the longer term or at least investments in youth.
I doubt Disasi would have been bought if it were thought that the 23 yo Fofana would be available.  If he was always in the plan as an alternate for Silva then why did we do nothing when we lost 2 CBs in Fofana and Chalobah?

It seems to me a fit Fofana would have left us in exactly the same situation.
Anyway I certainly say that Silva was not expected to have played 29 starts already.  But we got left short handed all over the pitch except at keeper.
 

Fine. We can agree to disagree.