Crystal Palace 1 Chelsea 3

[east lower]

10 hours ago, xceleryx said:

I don't think anyone has suggested Thiago Silva is the problem that once removed everything magically resolves itself. There still remains tactical issues that need to be amended for the benefit of our ball movement in general, however it's also not incorrect in noting just how slow Thiago Silva can be in possession at times - even with options ahead. 

A lack of pace does somewhat prevent him stepping forward into that space ahead, as any potential turnover of possession will see him caught upfield and incapable of getting back. If he did advance it forces the defenders to make a choice, which at some point they're going to then have to engage. Whether it creates passing opportunities or not is a case by case situation, at times it won't and the ball will need to go backwards or sides, other times it may draw a man out and create a bit of extra space. 

Our movement ahead is so-so. We do have some good runs at times ignored, others not seen, and then plenty of passes played in that are over or under hit. At the same time, we also have periods where we're stagnate which is not helped by our CB's being slow to move the ball around, even if its only sides it still makes the opposition move. Naturally possession football tends to be slower and more risk adverse, there does come a point where risks have to be taken particularly when there isn't necessarily the creativity across all supporting roles. 

Agree on Madueke though. 

But yeah, not suggesting TS gets dropped and all issues are solved, but I do think his limitations do require us to make adjustments to compensate. The Caicedo being able to drop back into a back three as that middle CB is a big one, we can't do that with TS in the side as he has to stay central. 

I must have seen three or four photos like the one used in the example. There’s so much space there I could make it into it and I can just about jog! 😉

The issue is we don’t have enough bodies in there to play off, I feel for Caicedo as he almost has to do it by himself and the good sides who share possession with us I.e. when we don’t dominate it, overwhelm him by weight of numbers.

A good coach solves that one, a poor one who’s trying to keep a number of players happy doesn’t. That’s where we are and that’s one of the reasons good sides can get at the back four/three. You get Chilwell going all gung-ho, leaving space behind him tgat when we lose possession the opposition just play into that space, exposing our left-sided centre-back.

A talented and brave coach sorts it.

[xceleryx]

9 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Ultimately three of the people challenging the inclusion of Silva (@paulw66, @xceleryx, and @Ham) barely have a word to say about the experience crisis in the squad. If you do think it is a problem at all chaps, you either keep it to yourselves or frame it in context of the broader project. 

Therefore I can't help feeling that you are making Thiago a scapegoat for the failings of the board. What is one of the main reasons Poch is still picking Silva at all - because he adds much needed experience, international quality and leadership to the team.

Again - this isn't about tarnishing Silva's legacy, but investigating the context in which Poch keeps picking him. That context is not one, as has been implied, where our failure to win or stop conceding is due to Thiago Silva.

Our failure to win is because we don't have enough experienced players throughout the squad - period. You should be turning your considerable qualities to holding the board's feet to the fire on that, because changing Thiago for Levi or Guehi is not going to make very much difference to this squad. In fact it's more likely to cause us to go further backwards than forwards.

As someone that hugely advocated for us to sign Thiago Silva initially, when in fact many were against it purely because of his age, my stance on Thiago Silva right now lies purely on what we as a team have to sacrifice to include him. Our lack of experience has been something I've also voiced previously, even going back a couple of years where there was a huge gap of players in a certain age bracket that would've helped fill the gaps left by David Luiz and Cahill's departures. That's not been remedied, if anything only heightened further by the nature of our rebuild. 

It's all well and good to pick Thiago Silva for his experience, but you also need to consider what's attached to that and how the side has to be somewhat tailored around him to negate his deficiencies. I've spoken about this on a couple of occasions now in the last few weeks, and we've seen the difference lately when TS hasn't been in the side, but the way we're able to morph into a back three in possession more seamlessly is night and day. It's far more organic to have Caicedo drop back and split the two centre backs, opposed to consciously keeping TS central and having either a more defensive fullback tuck in as that third CB, or having either Caicedo or at times Enzo slotting in. 

With Chilwell now back in the team he's naturally an attacking player that wants to get forward, so there's more space being left and we saw it against Wolves how that space behind Chilwell was exposed and Silva not having the pace and mobility to effectively cover. This wasn't an issue while he was out and a big part in why Colwill was likely selected as our LB, it allowed Silva to stay central and we had a quicker set of legs at fullback that could naturally tuck in. 

While you're not necessarily wrong that a lack of experience is why we've struggled, it's not necessarily the sole reason either. We can both lack experience but also be hindered by the limitations of our most senior statesmen. 

As continuously stressed no one is suggesting that dropping Silva magically solves all our issues, it's more that it would allow us to tweak the way we play to possibly give us more fluidity in possession.

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, east lower said:

I must have seen three or four photos like the one used in the example. There’s so much space there I could make it into it and I can just about jog! 😉

The issue is we don’t have enough bodies in there to play off, I feel for Caicedo as he almost has to do it by himself and the good sides who share possession with us I.e. when we don’t dominate it, overwhelm him by weight of numbers.

A good coach solves that one, a poor one who’s trying to keep a number of players happy doesn’t. That’s where we are and that’s one of the reasons good sides can get at the back four/three. You get Chilwell going all gung-ho, leaving space behind him tgat when we lose possession the opposition just play into that space, exposing our left-sided centre-back.

A talented and brave coach sorts it.

I agree that we need more bodies presenting themselves for the pass, just as I think a more mobile player could've maybe utilised the space ahead more effectively.

I'd like to see us get the ball into both Enzo and Caicedo more on the half turn, where they can then receive the ball and immediately step it forward to play a pass or carry. We kill this by firstly not moving the ball anywhere near quick enough, but also because there's usually too great of a disconnect between the midfield and defence.

The space behind Chilwell was something I noted the other week and why I've not been as critical as some with criticising Poch for using Colwill at left back. It's hard to play two more attacking fullbacks together while retaining Thiago Silva in the side, as there's naturally going to be more demand on the CB"s getting across to cover that space left. Chilwell could of course be more intelligent with his forward runs and positioning, but it'll always remain a problem no matter how attentive he may be. 

[kev61]

16 hours ago, martin1905 said:

It's a recurring conversation because it is an issue.

But that's just plain wrong. He walks with the ball, every single time he gets it,  takes far too many touches and the biggest problem is he is the outlet,  became he's so good on the ball. He literally sets the tempo. 

Doesn't matter how composed and accurate his passing is, he's nearly 40. 

It's not game specific Max, please don't get caught up on one game or one graphic, it's been a problem all season.

Yes, we as a team move the ball far too slowly and everyone is responsible but the big difference with Thiago and everyone else is that he is the outlet, he sets the tone and he is incapable of playing a high tempo. 

I'm not sure why it's even being debated, it's so blatantly obvious. He's nearly 40, he doesn't even have the quickness of thought anymore let alone the physical ability.

I think it's obvious that Thiago should start to be phased out.He does walk with the ball that does put out us on the back foot.

It's true that he looks as if he is looking for a pass and can't find one - but it could also be the case that he is slowing things down because he is knackered. 

He's one of the best defenders that ever played the game but  he should be a 'bit player' until his final move 

[Max Fowler]

6 hours ago, kev61 said:

It's true that he looks as if he is looking for a pass and can't find one - but it could also be the case that he is slowing things down because he is knackered. 

Even though he makes more passes than all our defenders 🫠

[Max Fowler]

10 hours ago, xceleryx said:

As someone that hugely advocated for us to sign Thiago Silva initially, when in fact many were against it purely because of his age, my stance on Thiago Silva right now lies purely on what we as a team have to sacrifice to include him. Our lack of experience has been something I've also voiced previously, even going back a couple of years where there was a huge gap of players in a certain age bracket that would've helped fill the gaps left by David Luiz and Cahill's departures. That's not been remedied, if anything only heightened further by the nature of our rebuild. 

It's all well and good to pick Thiago Silva for his experience, but you also need to consider what's attached to that and how the side has to be somewhat tailored around him to negate his deficiencies. I've spoken about this on a couple of occasions now in the last few weeks, and we've seen the difference lately when TS hasn't been in the side, but the way we're able to morph into a back three in possession more seamlessly is night and day. It's far more organic to have Caicedo drop back and split the two centre backs, opposed to consciously keeping TS central and having either a more defensive fullback tuck in as that third CB, or having either Caicedo or at times Enzo slotting in. 

With Chilwell now back in the team he's naturally an attacking player that wants to get forward, so there's more space being left and we saw it against Wolves how that space behind Chilwell was exposed and Silva not having the pace and mobility to effectively cover. This wasn't an issue while he was out and a big part in why Colwill was likely selected as our LB, it allowed Silva to stay central and we had a quicker set of legs at fullback that could naturally tuck in. 

While you're not necessarily wrong that a lack of experience is why we've struggled, it's not necessarily the sole reason either. We can both lack experience but also be hindered by the limitations of our most senior statesmen. 

As continuously stressed no one is suggesting that dropping Silva magically solves all our issues, it's more that it would allow us to tweak the way we play to possibly give us more fluidity in possession.

I agree with you overall - I am much more sympathetic to this kind of critique about how Thiago limits us physically and tactically than on the ball. To me the claims he slows us down in possession just don't hold water, but there is clearly an argument to be made that his physical capacities limit us tactically. Ultimately, I would leave that down to Poch though, and I still feel Thiago is being made a scapegoat and has drawn far too much attention compared to some of our other issues.

On the list of priorities in this team, replacing Thiago would be low for me, especially if we're not going to replace him with an elite level centre-half of the Van Dijk mould (we're not). I suspect that replacing him with our existing defenders will only make us more fragile in the short-term, and I would be concerned if we spent another £50 million on Guehi to replace him.

I also have big concerns going into the new season that we are about to lose Silva and Gallagher and replace them with who? Whatever you think of their limitations, they both offer leadership and experience that I simply do not see us replacing.

[Sciatika]

You could look at someone like James Tarkowski (sp?). He's 31, but he has a lot of experience and, if Everton are relegated, ...

[paulw66]

2 hours ago, Sciatika said:

You could look at someone like James Tarkowski (sp?). He's 31, but he has a lot of experience and, if Everton are relegated, ...

Even if Silva goes, we have got Disasi, Badiashil, Colwill, Fofana (fitness pending) and that is still assuming Chalobah goes, and Gilchrist maybe heads out on loan 

[Dwmh]

17 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Even if Silva goes, we have got Disasi, Badiashil, Colwill, Fofana (fitness pending) and that is still assuming Chalobah goes, and Gilchrist maybe heads out on loan 

So once breaks for injury or non-selections are considered, Disasi (22 PL starts todate) will have almost a full season in the Prem by next year, Badiashile(16) Just over half a season, Fofana (48) just over a season if he returns, Colwill (31) about 1 season, with presumably Chalobah (35) gone.

Not much actual PL experience there.  I guess that is why Poch keeps picking Silva.

[Sciatika]

44 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Even if Silva goes, we have got Disasi, Badiashil, Colwill, Fofana (fitness pending) and that is still assuming Chalobah goes, and Gilchrist maybe heads out on loan 

Fair enough. I was simply making the point that if we need more experience in the premier league, there might be some short-term options that might not cost a fortune. If we are good, then even better.

[paulw66]

21 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Not much actual PL experience there.  I guess that is why Poch keeps picking Silva.

Quite possibly. That and Chalobah, Fofana haven't been available, and Disasi and Colwill have been required to cover at full back due to consistent injury and suspension to Gusto, James, Chilwell and Cucurella 

 

Curious actually as to how many games Silva has started where Disasi, Badiashile or Colwill have been a sub

[Dwmh]

10 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Curious actually as to how many games Silva has started where Disasi, Badiashile or Colwill have been a sub

Not sure but he has started 26 out of 33 games  (22/24 PL) and quite a few of teh games missed were non-PL oppo.

Colwill has not been sub much but Badiashile has been a PL sub 8 tmes though rarely used - perhaps not 100% fit (plenty of room on the bench).

Certainly Silva was rested a lot more last year but then there were plenty of adults in the room last year.  Azpi and Koulibaly for starters.

[paulw66]

1 minute ago, Dwmh said:

Not sure but he has started 26 out of 33 games  (22/24 PL) and quite a few of teh games missed were non-PL oppo.

Colwill has not been sub much but Badiashile has been a PL sub 8 tmes though rarely used - perhaps not 100% fit (plenty of room on the bench).

Certainly Silva was rested a lot more last year but then there were plenty of adults in the room last year.  Azpi and Koulibaly for starters.

So that kinds of backs up the point 

There haven't been any alternatives (whether they were wanted or not) 

[Dwmh]

23 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

So that kinds of backs up the point 

There haven't been any alternatives (whether they were wanted or not) 

True.  Which in turn makes it even more likely he'll be back next season!

 

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Dwmh said:

True.  Which in turn makes it even more likely he'll be back next season!

 

Hasn't he already been told he's not getting a new contract?

[Dwmh]

1 minute ago, Mark Kelly said:

Hasn't he already been told he's not getting a new contract?

I dunno.  Was that the club talking, his missus or one of the "more reliable" twitterati?

If it is from this story https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/thiago-silva-chelsea-future-contract-31956530

then it sounds like he is doing his absolute best to avoid giving a hint while the media are doing their best to read something into it.  

[Max Fowler]

16 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

Hasn't he already been told he's not getting a new contract?

Yes, he's 100% leaving at the end of the season.

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

Curious actually as to how many games Silva has started where Disasi, Badiashile or Colwill have been a sub

There's been quite a few, but there's also been a lot of games where the likes of Maatsen / Cucurella / Gusto have been on the bench -just to name one example at the beginning when we played with a rotating 3 at the back switching to a 4.

Thiago has been our first-choice PL CB all season - no doubt about that.

He's not been picked because all the other centre-halves have been shifted out to full-back - he's Poch's first choice. I can go more into detailed stats but can't really be bothered - why are we still talking about Thiago Silva?!

[Dwmh]

27 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Yes, he's 100% leaving at the end of the season.

unfortunately 100% is no better than 50/50 from any of your sources, Max.

19 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Thiago has been our first-choice PL CB all season - no doubt about that.

He's not been picked because all the other centre-halves have been shifted out to full-back - he's Poch's first choice. I can go more into detailed stats but can't really be bothered - why are we still talking about Thiago Silva?!

Well quite.  When a player has made 25 starts by md Feb he usually can count on another season.
And it is not as if his wife has already gone off to Brazil with the kids.

 

[Max Fowler]

30 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

unfortunately 100% is no better than 50/50 from any of your sources, Max.

Well quite.  When a player has made 25 starts by md Feb he usually can count on another season.
And it is not as if his wife has already gone off to Brazil with the kids.

 

 

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

 

Funny that  is precisely the same interview quoted in the Mirror piece I linked to.

He is quite determined NOT to hint what will happen.
Some hack just decides to write the headline one way all the same, and some readers choose to read the headline and not follow the text.

Last season an extension was announced in February.  Pretty sure it won't be any earlier this season so we will find out in the next month.

(Sorry, I know that uncertainty is the enemy of the "football expert".  That is why all these newspaper stories and Spotrac are there.  Punters have less uncertainty to deal with making it easier for us all to pretend we know what is going on.
Doesn't make predictions any more accurate, but it makes us a lot more certain we are right!)

[Ham]

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Certainly Silva was rested a lot more last year but then there were plenty of adults in the room last year.  Azpi and Koulibaly for starters.

Azpi and Koulibaly were totally unreliable last season. Both unable to cope with the speed and intensity of the PL. 

Surely we're better off with less experienced players with the required engines. 

 

[Dwmh]

1 minute ago, Ham said:

Azpi and Koulibaly were totally unreliable last season. Both unable to cope with the speed and intensity of the PL. 

Surely we're better off with less experienced players with the required engines. 

 

Well if you want all youth you are certainly at the right club.  I suspect Poch wants some experience there.
 

[paulw66]

57 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Well if you want all youth you are certainly at the right club.  I suspect Poch wants some experience there.
 

there are limits, surely.

If Silva is playing for us again next season, there is something seriously wrong. Again, that's not a dig at him. 

 

[Dwmh]

8 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

there are limits, surely.

If Silva is playing for us again next season, there is something seriously wrong. Again, that's not a dig at him. 

 

I don't want him here (mind I think next year is no better than this year, so my sympathies are for him, others maybe more optimistic).
I'm just going through Poch's choices.  Does anyone think we can buy Tarkowski for next season?  Is that an option the club might offer Poch or next Poch.   

TT,   poTTer,    poTTerino,   PisspoTTerino?