Mark Kelly Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Just now, paulw66 said: By the way, saw it again this morning. Their goal is a clear foul. Caicedo had potentially already lost the ball, after Madueke's mistake, but Lerma clatters into him first, knocks him over and comes away with the ball. It was a foul but Caicedo really is his own worst enemy sometimes , he dwells on the ball so much it invites pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 3 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: It was a foul but Caicedo really is his own worst enemy sometimes , he dwells on the ball so much it invites pressure. Madueke was the one to blame. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 7 minutes ago, paulw66 said: Madueke was the one to blame. I meant generally , he faffed about constantly , not always his fault when left isolated in fairness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, ShedMiddle said: There were a few positives, Gallagher, Gusto(again), Caciedo. Enzo in patches and Nkunku when he gets a touch looks classy. However, I still don't think we looked great in the second. Agreed with all of this with the exception of Caicedo. I thought he was extremely poor last night and I'm one of his biggest supporters. There's talk of Silva slowing the play down, and he does, but Caicedo was equally bad. He slowed down every opportunity at a breakaway, holding onto the ball too long and putting himself and teammates under pressure. Also, his passing and decision making were appalling. 32 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: It didn't end 1-1 though, that's what matters. To me what was impressive was the fact that we got the game over the line - we delivered in important moments and often that's what football's all about. I am not getting ahead of myself - Quite. Spurs and Man United have been getting out of jail with late goals after poor performances and getting plaudits for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 23 minutes ago, Ham said: Agreed with all of this with the exception of Caicedo. I thought he was extremely poor last night and I'm one of his biggest supporters. There's talk of Silva slowing the play down, and he does, but Caicedo was equally bad. He slowed down every opportunity at a breakaway, holding onto the ball too long and putting himself and teammates under pressure. Also, his passing and decision making were appalling. Quite. Spurs and Man United have been getting out of jail with late goals after poor performances and getting plaudits for it. The really funny thing about this is that Caicedo's passing was instrumental in the build up to our first and second goals. Lovely pass to free up Gusto for the cross on the first goal. And another good pass to Sterling to receive the ball on the turn and drive for the second. Both of these passes were done within two touches by the way. Caicedo has become the new Mikel. A very good player that our fans just don't like for whatever reason. Really strange. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 51 minutes ago, paulw66 said: I don't recall Colwill making many (any) howlers. The overall benefit of having a CB who can actually run is becoming increasingly obvious. Don't you remember that run of 2-3 games where Colwill kept losing his man at LB and cost us a goal? Okay - it's not his natural position - I just think we easily could drop Silva and see the CBs do the basics worse. If we had a clear and obvious solution - ca lear first choice defender - then we wouldn't be having this conversation. There are positives and negatives to keeping Silva in the team but he still is a class above in his defensive work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Just now, Bison said: The really funny thing about this is that Caicedo's passing was instrumental in the build up to our first and second goals. Lovely pass to free up Gusto for the cross on the first goal. And another good pass to Sterling to receive the ball on the turn and drive for the second. Both of these passes were done within two touches by the way. Caicedo has become the new Mikel. A very good player that our fans just don't like for whatever reason. Really strange. I still don't think Caicedo is playing particularly well but he has unbelievable capacities if we can get him up to full speed. Even when he plays average he can do things on the pitch that few others can. I actually found it hard to separate him and Enzo last night - thought they were both pretty patchy. We need Enzo and Gallagher in particular to contribute more goals and assists because the midfield is naturally a bit flat if Enzo and Caicedo are just recycling the ball among each other. I also feel like Caicedo is finding the adjustment and pressure quite a lot to handle, but he is still delivering decent level performances. You can see he has the weight of expectation on him, but the shackles are slowly coming off. As Enzo has been here a bit longer I have more expectation on him being a leader on the pitch already. Caicedo is still in his first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) Hate to say it but the game changed when Silva went off. It's becoming increasingly obvious that he just can't play in the Premier league any more. It's not his lack of pace, we've managed to find ways to compensate for that It's that he is just so slow on the ball. He's nearly 40 so no surprise really but he must only play now when we have no other options. Unfortunately he has become a massive hindrance in our all round play. Edited February 13 by martin1905 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 4 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: If we had a clear and obvious solution - ca lear first choice defender - then we wouldn't be having this conversation. Colwill / Badiashile (when fit) are the obvious solutions for LCB. Colwill's mistakes at LB were largely borne from not knowing the position. RCB Disasi, and potentially now we might see Trev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 5 minutes ago, Bison said: The really funny thing about this is that Caicedo's passing was instrumental in the build up to our first and second goals. Lovely pass to free up Gusto for the cross on the first goal. And another good pass to Sterling to receive the ball on the turn and drive for the second. Both of these passes were done within two touches by the way. Caicedo has become the new Mikel. A very good player that our fans just don't like for whatever reason. Really strange. I don't see it this way at all , he had a game last night where in moments he looked like he hadn't seen a football before , others where he dwelt on the ball and others where he was trying to pass forward , gave the ball away and in doing so sprung the counter attack for the opposition . He's a really excellent player , we've seen it before and we'll see it again but last night was not one of his best. He's no Chilwell or Mudryk but he's getting there . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 9 minutes ago, martin1905 said: Hate to say it but the game changed when Silva went off. It's becoming increasingly obvious that he just can't play in the Premier league any more. It's nit his lack of pace, we've managed to find ways to compensate for that It's that he is just so slow on the ball. He's nearly 40 so no surprise really but he must only play now when we have no other options. Unfortunately he has become a massive hindrance in our all round play. It looks like the decision will be taken out of Poch's hands now anyway. Possibly the most dignified way for him to be eased out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Just now, paulw66 said: It looks like the decision will be taken out of Poch's hands now anyway. Possibly the most dignified way for him to be eased out. It's horrible to think, let alone say out loud but it really will be a blessing in disguise. You will not see a slower CB on the ball, anywhere. He literally walks with it and it is a huge problem with how we want to play. I'm not blaming last nights first half performance on him but he was a massive reason as to why we moved the ball so slow and have so much possession in the most pointless parts of the pitch. I say all this with nothing but love and respect for the man, he's one of the best of all time but it's time to move on. Who'd want to see a 39 year old JT trying to play modern day premier league football? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1905 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 8 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: I don't see it this way at all , he had a game last night where in moments he looked like he hadn't seen a football before , others where he dwelt on the ball and others where he was trying to pass forward , gave the ball away and in doing so sprung the counter attack for the opposition . He's a really excellent player , we've seen it before and we'll see it again but last night was not one of his best. He's no Chilwell or Mudryk but he's getting there . Thing is he's not a DM and shouldn't be the deepest midfielder, especially when the others leave him so isolated. Not really Poch's fault, and you won't hear me saying that too many times, we really have no other options. It's not that different to expecting Kante to play on his own as a DM, would be completely and utterly wasted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: I don't see it this way at all , he had a game last night where in moments he looked like he hadn't seen a football before , others where he dwelt on the ball and others where he was trying to pass forward , gave the ball away and in doing so sprung the counter attack for the opposition . He's a really excellent player , we've seen it before and we'll see it again but last night was not one of his best. He's no Chilwell or Mudryk but he's getting there . Just looking up the stats now and Caicedo misplaced 5 passes last night. He made 96 succesful passes and was involved in the build to all three goals (he released Palmer for the breakaway third, again just taking two touches to do so). I'm not saying Caicedo doesn't make mistakes. I just take issue with the way our own supporters speak about him when it's so far from the reality. We have a player in our team who genuinely plays worse than a Sunday league footballer and we're told to give him xyears before judging him. Caicedo is younger than that player! 😂 Edited February 13 by Bison 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 10 minutes ago, Bison said: Just looking up the stats now and Caicedo misplaced 5 passes last night. He made 96 succesful passes and was involved in the build to all three goals (he released Palmer for the breakaway third, again just taking two touches to do so). Tells a story, certainly. I think with Caicedo is that some people can't look past the transfer fee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiswickblue Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said: I meant generally , he faffed about constantly , not always his fault when left isolated in fairness. Hindsight helps of course, but Madueke and Jackson aren't the players to use against a team playing a low block. Both need space to be effective. Sterling/Nkunku/Palmer would be my front three for these matches, as those are the players with the quality to play in really tight spaces. When we expect to have a bit more space, such as against City, Madueke and Jackson come back into the picture. Notice I haven't mentioned Mudryk... Silva has to remain on the bench from now on as far as possible, he forces us to play too deep and creates a big gap if Chilwell is playing at LB next to him rather than Colwill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 12 minutes ago, martin1905 said: It's horrible to think, let alone say out loud but it really will be a blessing in disguise. You will not see a slower CB on the ball, anywhere. He literally walks with it and it is a huge problem with how we want to play. I'm not blaming last nights first half performance on him but he was a massive reason as to why we moved the ball so slow and have so much possession in the most pointless parts of the pitch. I say all this with nothing but love and respect for the man, he's one of the best of all time but it's time to move on. Who'd want to see a 39 year old JT trying to play modern day premier league football? I totally disagree Martin. You've got this all wrong. Was Thiago guilty of being slow on the ball yesterday? Yes, so was the whole team. Is he able to recycle the ball much quicker, even at 39? Yes. That isn't the problem. In fact, Thiago is still able to distribute the ball much more quickly and effectively than our other centre-halves because he's just so good on the ball. The issue yesterday was a tactical one, and again we did better in the second half before Thiago came off. The problem is when he gets exposed e.g. on the break, or with players running at him. Even then, he has still been our best centre-half this season by a mile. Do we need to phase him out soon? Of course, but he isn't the problem. The problem is we don't have a clear top level centre-half replacement and none of the other centre-halves look ready to step up to that level. The problem is we barely have any big game experience and Thiago has that in abundance. He's gonna go in the summer anyway. This is not about "disrespecting his legacy". It's about the truth that our problems do not stem from Thiago Silva and replacing him with two of the others is absolutely not going to transform our team. I'm sorry, it's just not. It's not that cut and dry. Poch still plays Silva for obvious reasons - is there trade offs for doing so? Of course, but let's not make out it's such a clear cut decision because that is simply not true. As a fanbase it feels like we keep coming up with individuals who are "the problem" - first it was Jackson, then Gallagher, then Sterling, now it's Thiago Silva. Football is much more complicated than that and we have systemic and collective issues we have to solve without knee jerking to thinking that one personnel change from within our squad is going to solve all our problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 🥲 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 20 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: I totally disagree Martin. You've got this all wrong. I don't think he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 Hahaha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 (edited) Sorry for spamming 💙 (I guess that wasn't last Night :D) Edited February 13 by Max Fowler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 14 minutes ago, paulw66 said: I don't think he has. Assuming Thiago could be out for a few weeks, I assume we will have a chance to see how well our young bucks can cope without him. My prediction, not very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 14 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Sorry for spamming 💙 (I guess that wasn't last Night :D) It's nice to see Enzo and Caicedo getting on so well together 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 26 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Assuming Thiago could be out for a few weeks, I assume we will have a chance to see how well our young bucks can cope without him. My prediction, not very well. So no different to with Silva, either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 18 minutes ago, paulw66 said: So no different to with Silva, either? “No different” is not the same as “OMG taking out Silva is the answer to all our problems!!!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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