Crystal Palace 1 Chelsea 3

[Bert19]

2 hours ago, Bison said:

The really funny thing about this is that Caicedo's passing was instrumental in the build up to our first and second goals. 

Lovely pass to free up Gusto for the cross on the first goal. And another good pass to Sterling to receive the ball on the turn and drive for the second. Both of these passes were done within two touches by the way. 

Caicedo has become the new Mikel. A very good player that our fans just don't like for whatever reason. Really strange. 

I think it's a combination of his transfer fee and the fact we still haven't really seen him play in his best role yet - I still maintain he's more of an Essien or Ramires than a DM.  And is similar to Essien in that he's doing his best in the role he's been asked to play, but it's not really what he's best at. 

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

Hate to say it but the game changed when Silva went off.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that he just can't play in the Premier league any more. It's not his lack of pace, we've managed to find ways to compensate for that It's that he is just so slow on the ball. He's nearly 40 so no surprise really but he must only play now when we have no other options. 

Unfortunately he has become a massive hindrance in our all round play.

 

I said in another thread the other day that he might now be limited to CCB in a back 3 or to be our 'closer' in the last 25 mins of games. 

He's a wonderful player to have about the place, but I don't think he's suited to a back 4 any more.  Certainly not if we're going to play as expansively as we seem to want to. 

1 hour ago, martin1905 said:

Thing is he's not a DM and shouldn't be the deepest midfielder,  especially when the others leave him so isolated. 

Not really Poch's fault, and you won't hear me saying that too many times, we really have no other options. 

It's not that different to expecting Kante to play on his own as a DM, would be completely and utterly wasted.

Agree totally here. I think he's doing the job he's being asked to, not the one he's best at. 

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

🥲

 

 

Some of us were singing this on the way to Munich.

It's been a fun one associated with our Club for a while - great that it's popped up again 🙂

[martin1905]

6 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

“No different” is not the same as “OMG taking out Silva is the answer to all our problems!!!”

Yeah, you've taken it completely out of context Max.

At no point have I said it will solve everything, far from it. I've been as critical of the manager as anyone and our problems are not fixable by dropping one player.

It will make a difference though.

Edited February 13 by martin1905

[thevelourfog]

My stream cut out as the ref was having his half time struggles. Maybe I really should stop watching us!

[Max Fowler]

13 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Yeah, you've taken it completely out of context Max.

At no point have I said it will solve everything, far from it. I've been as critical of the manager as anyone and our problems are not fixable by dropping one player.

It will make a difference though.

Fair enough Martin. I don't think any of the centre-halves have shown enough defensive quality to cope without Thiago, and I think we will be worse off in the short term without him. But let's see 👍

[flllerywhereru2]

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Fair enough Martin. I don't think any of the centre-halves have shown enough defensive quality to cope without Thiago, and I think we will be worse off in the short term without him. But let's see 👍

Totally agree, in fact i think at wembley in two weeks we could suffer big time without his experience

[Bert19]

1 minute ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

Totally agree, in fact i think at wembley in two weeks we could suffer big time without his experience

I'd be tempted to go 3-5-2 in that game tbh 

[paulw66]

43 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

“No different” is not the same as “OMG taking out Silva is the answer to all our problems!!!”

Not what I am saying. Your concern is that the replacements will do worse . How much worse can it be? We are (were) shipping goals left, right and centre with him in the team. I don't see how pairing Disasi with Colwill / Badiashile will make it any worse. 

If you look at the last two games, he didn't start at Villa, no goals conceded, 3 goals scored, then he comes on and we concede. Last night, with him on the pitch it is 1-1 and without him for twenty minutes, we win 2-0. It's a small sample, granted, but I have no fears that without Silva the defending will get worse than what we saw at SB on Sunday 

 

[paulw66]

13 minutes ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

Totally agree, in fact i think at wembley in two weeks we could suffer big time without his experience

Wembley....big pitch. Lots of space to run into. No place for someone who cant run unless you play 3 at the back and protect him

[McCreadie]

2 hours ago, martin1905 said:

Who'd want to see a 39 year old JT trying to play modern day premier league football?

Nobody.

But watching Rio Ferdinand play that last season for QPR was absolutely hilarious 🤣

[Holymoly]

2 hours ago, Bison said:

Just looking up the stats now and Caicedo misplaced 5 passes last night. He made 96 succesful passes and was involved in the build to all three goals (he released Palmer for the breakaway third, again just taking two touches to do so). 

I'm not saying Caicedo doesn't make mistakes. I just take issue with the way our own supporters speak about him when it's so far from the reality. We have a player in our team who genuinely plays worse than a Sunday league footballer and we're told to give him xyears before judging him. Caicedo is younger than that player! 😂

I think it's a mistake to go about blaming everything on individuals as the poor performances get shared about fairly evenly and we just end up looking foolish when we bleat on about the only reason we're not top 4 is because of x or y. The main reason for the inconsistencies is the lack of experienced leaders and that is evident whoever ends up starting the game. I don't know that there's anyone in the squad capable of stepping up in time either.

[Max Fowler]

17 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

Not what I am saying. Your concern is that the replacements will do worse . How much worse can it be? We are (were) shipping goals left, right and centre with him in the team. I don't see how pairing Disasi with Colwill / Badiashile will make it any worse. 

If you look at the last two games, he didn't start at Villa, no goals conceded, 3 goals scored, then he comes on and we concede. Last night, with him on the pitch it is 1-1 and without him for twenty minutes, we win 2-0. It's a small sample, granted, but I have no fears that without Silva the defending will get worse than what we saw at SB on Sunday 

 

Like you said Paul, you're picking a small sample.

We played well at Villa and I agree that in future we will benefit from quicker centre-half options. I simply don't agree that it's down to him though. We turned up at Villa for somewhat mysterious reasons - these lads sometimes play well under a lot of pressure (see some big games earlier in the season) but get complacent in "easier" games. I get that it helped having quick defenders, but honestly Villa is going to prove to be a fluke performance that we won't replicate very often for the foreseeable future.

To imply that our slow play yesterday was down to Silva is just an absolute nonsense. Everyone played slowly, him included. Does he have his own responsibility? Yes. Did he cause everyone else to play slowly as well? Hell no.

You ignore the sheer amount of great defending he still offers. His anticipation is still insane, his reading of the game world class. Even the slide he got injured doing yesterday showed off his capabilities. Meanwhile all the other defenders easily make more mistakes than him - Colwill and especially Badiashille far more, Disasi less so but he's still made more.

If Thiago is injured we will get to see what the others offer but given our upcoming fixtures - it won't be pretty.

[Max Fowler]

10 minutes ago, Holymoly said:

I think it's a mistake to go about blaming everything on individuals as the poor performances get shared about fairly evenly and we just end up looking foolish when we bleat on about the only reason we're not top 4 is because of x or y. The main reason for the inconsistencies is the lack of experienced leaders and that is evident whoever ends up starting the game. I don't know that there's anyone in the squad capable of stepping up in time either.

I agree - this is a collective problem. Also many of our players are coming in and out of form and are inconsistent. Gallagher is now scoring and is the best thing since sliced bread. In a month from now he'll be first name on the sell sheet for many people. 

Better to look at the collective problems that stop us being consistent than this constant merry-go-round of "We need to try Mudryk instead of Madueke!!!", "Colwill should play instead of Silva!!", "Gallagher is so done!", "Get rid of Sterling now!" blah blah blah

[paulw66]

10 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Like you said Paul, you're picking a small sample.

We played well at Villa and I agree that in future we will benefit from quicker centre-half options. I simply don't agree that it's down to him though. We turned up at Villa for somewhat mysterious reasons - these lads sometimes play well under a lot of pressure (see some big games earlier in the season) but get complacent in "easier" games. I get that it helped having quick defenders, but honestly Villa is going to prove to be a fluke performance that we won't replicate very often for the foreseeable future.

To imply that our slow play yesterday was down to Silva is just an absolute nonsense. Everyone played slowly, him included. Does he have his own responsibility? Yes. Did he cause everyone else to play slowly as well? Hell no.

You ignore the sheer amount of great defending he still offers. His anticipation is still insane, his reading of the game world class. Even the slide he got injured doing yesterday showed off his capabilities. Meanwhile all the other defenders easily make more mistakes than him - Colwill and especially Badiashille far more, Disasi less so but he's still made more.

If Thiago is injured we will get to see what the others offer but given our upcoming fixtures - it won't be pretty.

You seem to be ignoring the fact our defending hasn't been pretty WITH him in the team either. 

The tactical sacrifices the whole team have to have to accommodate someone that slow, negates any good, IMO. Your left back doesn't have the license to attack, as he can't be left one on one. The back line needs to play deeper generally, so there is a bigger gap between defence and midfield. 

For avoidance of doubt, and my last post on the this; I am not for one minute suggesting he is the root of all problems, and I don't think that not picking him is not going to fix everything. I do believe though that picking a CB who can move will help the team as a whole from a tactical standpoint.

What team has ever qualified for top 4 (or 6) has had a 39 year old CB? We have been lucky to witness some great ones here, but even JT was phased out during the season he turned 36

[Max Fowler]

14 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

What team has ever qualified for top 4 (or 6) has had a 39 year old CB? We have been lucky to witness some great ones here, but even JT was phased out during the season he turned 36

I'll make my last point on this too. You seem to be forgetting that Thiago won the Champions League with us when he was 36!!! He was also absolutely instrumental, essentially he looked about 30-32 then and now looks more like 34-36. The guy is a different animal to even JT, the condition he is in is insane.

I accept your points but the bigger questions are - which team who has ever qualified for top 4 or 6 has ever had a squad so young as ours? Which club has ever spaffed so much money to not make top 4, 6, or 8 in consecutive seasons?

[paulw66]

21 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I'll make my last point on this too. You seem to be forgetting that Thiago won the Champions League with us when he was 36!!! 

In a back 3. 

and he's now 39 

[asvaberg]

1 hour ago, paulw66 said:

Wembley....big pitch. Lots of space to run into. No place for someone who cant run unless you play 3 at the back and protect him

Hmmm - aren't all pitches fairly the same size? Isn't there a general rule? "The field of play"

Wembley = 105x69m

Villa Park = 105x68m

SB = 103,3x67,7m

https://www.huck-net.co.uk/news/2023-05/premier-league-pitch-sizes/

 

 

[Ham]

3 hours ago, Bison said:

Just looking up the stats now and Caicedo misplaced 5 passes last night. He made 96 succesful passes and was involved in the build to all three goals (he released Palmer for the breakaway third, again just taking two touches to do so). 

I'm not saying Caicedo doesn't make mistakes. I just take issue with the way our own supporters speak about him when it's so far from the reality. We have a player in our team who genuinely plays worse than a Sunday league footballer and we're told to give him xyears before judging him. Caicedo is younger than that player! 😂

 

3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Tells a story, certainly.

I think with Caicedo is that some people can't look past the transfer fee. 

You're both coming at this from the perspective that myself and Mark are anti- Caicedo or that there is some campaign against him.

 We're both big fans of his but pointed out that he DID have an off night last night, regardless of the number of completed passes or whether he subsequently made some key passes.

He was slow and ponderous in possession, lost the ball a few times and misplaced passes. 

I don't blame him for being fouled in the build up to the first goal but he definitely should have done much better in the lead up. 

Against a better side we would have been punished more for his errors.

I find it funny though Bison that you regularly slaughter the players you don't like but refuse to accept any criticism against your favourites, using misdirection in his defence. 

I'm a huge Caicedo fan but he had a stinker. He's going to be a superstar for us but last night was not up to standard. 

 

[paulw66]

5 minutes ago, Ham said:

 

You're both coming at this from the perspective that myself and Mark are anti- Caicedo or that there is some campaign against him.

 

I certainly didn't mean that. He did have a couple of wobbly moments last night, agreed. He also did some good

[paulw66]

12 minutes ago, asvaberg said:

Hmmm - aren't all pitches fairly the same size? Isn't there a general rule? "The field of play"

Wembley = 105x69m

Villa Park = 105x68m

SB = 103,3x67,7m

https://www.huck-net.co.uk/news/2023-05/premier-league-pitch-sizes/

 

 

I would be amazed if Wembley is only that much bigger than SB. Maybe it just appears that way

[Max Fowler]

18 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

In a back 3. 

and he's now 39 

Yes and you just said Terry was phased out when he was 36. But that's a poor point because Thiago was killing it for us when he was 36. I thought we were done anyway? 😄

[Rob B]

4 minutes ago, Ham said:

I'm a huge Caicedo fan but he had a stinker. He's going to be a superstar for us but last night was not up to standard. 

Agreed.  He had an off night which you can't always substantiate with stats. 

For example, I distinctly remember a couple of times where he gave the ball away poorly which opened us up to a counter-attack.  That's very different to attempting a tricky final ball to play someone through or whatever. 

Like you, big fan of Caicedo, but no problems with calling a spade a spade. 

[boratsbrother]

3 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Fair enough Martin. I don't think any of the centre-halves have shown enough defensive quality to cope without Thiago, and I think we will be worse off in the short term without him. But let's see 👍

But there is the point that the more starts the younger ones make the faster they'll gain the much needed experience. The biggest problem with our defence has been the constant chopping and changing due to injuries. A settled starting lineup will make a significant difference after a while.

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

But there is the point that the more starts the younger ones make the faster they'll gain the much needed experience. The biggest problem with our defence has been the constant chopping and changing due to injuries. A settled starting lineup will make a significant difference after a while.

They won't gain "much needed experience" if they are getting tonked every week because there isn't enough current experience in the side. These players will never reach their true potential and market value unless we are successful on the pitch. Playing alone isn't enough.

[chara]

Next day reflection...I made an unfair comment re Palmer at half time..... I think not so much I thought he was bad as that I have expectations of him and he was getting mixed in with all the non productive possession.

Ciacedo..usually can see the underlaying ability/potential but he made what I thought were lazy passes,,,not hit positively enough and intercepted or turned into almost what was once referred to as a "hospital pass".

Silva...to my unpractised eye it often looked as if he was looking for options and seeing none so appeared to dwell on the ball, Agree with the overall views but I don't think anyone including The Man himself expected that he would have so much playing time due to injuries all around him...he is not the problem and whilst nowhere near his prime still puts in a shift defying his age.

A win is a win and remember regardless of the oppositions place in the table every side is looking for a win and plays according to their coach's idea of how that may be achieved not how prettily that can be achieved!

Pep at one extreme and Woy, as an example, at the other,

@east lower,,,and others...thanks for the hands on posts....how was the atmosphere/attitude in the Chelsea band of Brothers? (and Sisters!)..any comments worth repeating?

Edited February 13 by chara

[Dwmh]

Bad:  Lots really.  Not very creative, failed to dominate until after we took a lead, Palace's game worked on us well, their occasional press was very effective, our normal press was absent.  2 pointless yellows (stop blaming the refs) and Gallagher should certainly have been carded for joining the crowd (I think the ref just couldn't find him because he was hiding amongst the fans).

Good:  Quite a bit too.  We beat a team we shoul d beat (completing tasks is good).  We did it from a goal behind.  Some great finishing by Gallagher who looked really relaxed on this ground (and not at all shy about celebrating).  Superb finishing by an Ice Cold Fernandez.  Another good save by Petrovic.
We are finally looking like we care.  It would be a bit nicer if we celebrated 10m short of the fans (like Fernandez) and not amongst them.  But they did look like they cared.  They did not earlier in the season or much last season.

Basically another small step forward towards 54 or so points for the season.  Gets tougher

  

21 hours ago, thevelourfog said:

I have no idea what a Mateus Franca is, and that scares me.

He was good.  At least I saw him do a lot of good things.