Aston Villa 1 Chelsea 3

[Dwmh]

24 minutes ago, Ham said:

So even very specific quotes from the horse's mouth are not enough for you. 

I'm out. 

Especially specific quotes from the horse's mouth.
why is it you can recognise PR bullshit from a mile away today but you can't see it 30 years ago?
What is so difficult about accepting the patently obvious?

[Mark Kelly]

23 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Especially specific quotes from the horse's mouth.
why is it you can recognise PR bullshit from a mile away today but you can't see it 30 years ago?
What is so difficult about accepting the patently obvious?

What is so difficult about accepting that you are once again swimming against the tide of opinion and drowning?

Youre wrong, suck it up like a big boy and move on. 

[Dwmh]

30 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

What is so difficult about accepting that you are once again swimming against the tide of opinion and drowning?

Youre wrong, suck it up like a big boy and move on. 

Once again fact outdoes opinion - football fan opinion in this case so not a big surprise.

What I discover is that there are thousands of things that i thought were clear and factual over the decades and I learnt I was wrong (and so were most people).  Happens all the time.  I've got used to facts over turning my deeply treasured myths.

Try explaining to anyone with access to the internet that Hoddle was key to anything at Chelsea - it really makes no sense.  He followed a rise to mid-table and preceded a rise from mid-table to top 6.  
He won nothing (but we won the FAC the year after he went and the cup winners cup).

In the three years pre-Hoddle we averaged 52.7  points, were 11th twice and 14th once.
In the three Hoddle years we averaged 53.4 points (adjusted to 42 games), were 11th twice and 14th once.

In the three post Hoddle years we averaged 65.7  (=72.6 over 42 games), were 6th 4th and 3rd and never out of the top 6 for 20 years.
And they won FAC, LC, CWC and Super Cup 

The most bizzaro point thing is that it follows the long nonsense by mostly the same people (MK especially) about Klopp being a nobody because he won only one PL and one CL
Hoddle never won a trophy at Chelsea - or Swindon, England, Southampton, Spurs or Wolves.

Who is drowning?

 

[asvaberg]

You forgot: Hoddle managed the same low win % as the "iconic" Porterfield.

That said, Hoddle was in many ways the door opener for the club - made us attractive to top-class players such as Gullit, Petrescu, Peacock and Hughes (forgive me if this is completely wrongly remembered).

[Dwmh]

9 minutes ago, asvaberg said:

You forgot: Hoddle managed the same low win % as the "iconic" Porterfield.

That said, Hoddle was in many ways the door opener for the club - made us attractive to top-class players such as Gullit, Petrescu, Peacock and Hughes (forgive me if this is completely wrongly remembered).

Indeed - they were equally iconic - along with Webb,
Peacock was a top class player?  From the 2nd tier?  Well in my High Street there are benches dedicated to Eric Liddell (Chariots of Fire), Bob Hope and Gavin Peacock.  But I didn't know any of there were top class players.  Shame no one told Hoddle, he could have picked him for England.

Only one was playing abroad.  Hughes was 31, Gullitt 33.
Gullitt was the door opener.  And Bates's money.
Player wise - Wisey stood out a mile - bought in 1990.  From a local club on the same branch of the District line.

[asvaberg]

29 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Indeed - they were equally iconic - along with Webb,
Peacock was a top class player?  From the 2nd tier?  Well in my High Street there are benches dedicated to Eric Liddell (Chariots of Fire), Bob Hope and Gavin Peacock.  But I didn't know any of there were top class players.  Shame no one told Hoddle, he could have picked him for England.

Only one was playing abroad.  Hughes was 31, Gullitt 33.
Gullitt was the door opener.  And Bates's money.
Player wise - Wisey stood out a mile - bought in 1990.  From a local club on the same branch of the District line.

Hmmm, ok.

But du you disagree in anything here (facts)

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/glenn-hoddle

[My Blood Is Blue]

Honestly @Dwmh, it just feels like you’re trolling at this point. Just stop.

[Dwmh]

26 minutes ago, asvaberg said:

Hmmm, ok.

But du you disagree in anything here (facts)

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/glenn-hoddle

Only the last sentence,  The rest is pure standard PR.
 

18 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Honestly @Dwmh, it just feels like you’re trolling at this point. Just stop.

 

I'll try - but seriously for me, the idea that so many are convinced Hoddle really changed something when nothing really changed is curious.  He always talked well, got the England job, was on TV far far too much, but as a manager he barely achieved anything in 25 years.  11th to 11th via 14th.
I guess it is like telling Americans that they made little difference to WW2 in Europe.  Or that masks didn't work and the scientists knew they didn't.  The facts are 100% clear, but they won't believe a word of it.

[ROTG]

14 hours ago, Ham said:

In the words of Ruud Gullit;

‘Glenn had to sell Chelsea and their ambition to me - he said they were at the start of a journey too - but what was most important was that it was Glenn. In the eyes of the Dutch, he was the best English footballer ever but in England he was not appreciated. In the Netherlands, we said 'oh my god, he was a player meant for us, not for you'.

‘He had first phoned me up a few months previously to say he wanted to sign me and because I saw him as a player who played skilful football, I knew for sure he would not be a manager who would want to play the long ball and that was a very important factor in my decision.’

From TCOWS Hoddle season 3

He had also become a director and in a meeting in May 1995, later dubbed ‘the Marriott Accord’ (after the Heathrow hotel that hosted it), Harding joined chairman Ken Bates, managing director Colin Hutchinson and Hoddle.

Ambition filled the room. All present shared a desire to ensure the momentum built over the previous two seasons was not lost and Chelsea could compete at the top in this brave new world of football.

Eye-catching, headline-grabbing and fan-exciting new signings were wanted with Ruud Gullit and Paul Gascoigne the targets. We were successful with Gullit, able to capture the Dutch master on a free transfer due to the ‘Bosman ruling’ change to transfer regulations. He was a statement signing that put Chelsea on every back page in Europe.

Gullit at one time had been considered the best player in the world and brought with him great stature and status. At his unveiling press conference it was announced that revered striker Mark Hughes would be signing from Manchester United too. Chelsea were genuinely going places. It had echoes of the star recruitments made between the wars.

[paulw66]

"our son is the only one marching in time" 

[Dwmh]

3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

"our son is the only one marching in time" 

Of course he is wearing clothes, how could the Emperor not have any clothes on.
Didn't anyone hear him doing those interviews?  

[martin1905]

14 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Try explaining to anyone with access to the internet that Hoddle was key to anything at Chelsea - it really makes no sense.  He followed a rise to mid-table and preceded a rise from mid-table to top 6.  
 

Why would you need to explain anything to people with access to the internet?

Try explaining to real Chelsea fans Hoddle wasn't   key to anything Chelsea and you will see, first hand, what reaction you get.

Of course your right though and everyone that disagrees with you is wrong amd your argument,  how many points he got per season. Brilliant.

Edited February 11 by martin1905

[Mark Kelly]

2 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Of course he is wearing clothes, how could the Emperor not have any clothes on.
Didn't anyone hear him doing those interviews?  

I just want to check here as I need to know exactly what you think everyone is saying. 

Nobody as far as I know is saying the side we had under Hoddle was a great side, that is borne out by the league position under his management. 

What everyone is saying is that Hoddle ability with Hutchinson and Bates behind him was the catalyst for perception of Chelsea changing from a small unfancied side to one with the ambition to go places. 

That I believe is all and if you don't agree with that then you are wrong. No amount of whataboutery will change that. 

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

"our son is the only one marching in time" 

I will follow you will you follow me

[ROTG]

9 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

What everyone is saying is that Hoddle ability with Hutchinson and Bates behind him was the catalyst for perception of Chelsea changing from a small unfancied side to one with the ambition to go places. 

You are right, that was in season 3 then he took the England Job. 

Thereafter Gulllit was part of the of the process to bring in European players along with Hutchinson / Bates making the most of Bosman. " One could say that Bosman also influence the club"

I know I am repeating myself, however Hoddle, Gullit and Vialli were good coaches / figureheads, however the club's real elevation to the top tear was when KB decided to hire Ranieri, who at the time was a top coach in Italy and took on the restructuring an aging team. 

[Ham]

Droy and ROTG in a competition to see who can move the most goalposts and introduce the most strawmen. 

The perfect storm. 

[asvaberg]

Re Gavin Peacock.

From what I can see of these clips, he was exactly what we've been missing for the last years- a goalscoring Striker 🙂

 

[boratsbrother]

48 minutes ago, ROTG said:

You are right, that was in season 3 then he took the England Job. 

Thereafter Gulllit was part of the of the process to bring in European players along with Hutchinson / Bates making the most of Bosman. " One could say that Bosman also influence the club"

I know I am repeating myself, however Hoddle, Gullit and Vialli were good coaches / figureheads, however the club's real elevation to the top tear was when KB decided to hire Ranieri, who at the time was a top coach in Italy and took on the restructuring an aging team. 

Fairer points this time but you still refuse to admit that it the appointment of Hoddle which  STARTED  the transformation of the club. 

Yes, the Bosman rule enabled us to afford Gullit but it was Hoddle who persuaded Gullit to come here.  Remember that at that time we had nothing which could attract a player of his stature. A club which had been a yoyo club, won nothing in decades, playing in front of a half empty stadium in a dump of a stadium well below the standard of the other clubs. 

Imho the important people who helped most to  transform the club were - Bates,  then Bates and Harding and Hutchinson.  Hoddle, then onto Rudd, Vialli, Ranieri. All of those characters played their part in the club's steady progression which lead to Roman and Jose. You can argue that Hoddle was the least important of those managers, but surely not argue he wasn't very important in starting the ball rolling. 

[jasonb]

12 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Fairer points this time but you still refuse to admit that it the appointment of Hoddle which  STARTED  the transformation of the club. 

Yes, the Bosman rule enabled us to afford Gullit but it was Hoddle who persuaded Gullit to come here.  Remember that at that time we had nothing which could attract a player of his stature. A club which had been a yoyo club, won nothing in decades, playing in front of a half empty stadium in a dump of a stadium well below the standard of the other clubs. 

Imho the important people who helped most to  transform the club were - Bates,  then Bates and Harding and Hutchinson.  Hoddle, then onto Rudd, Vialli, Ranieri. All of those characters played their part in the club's steady progression which lead to Roman and Jose. You can argue that Hoddle was the least important of those managers, but surely not argue he wasn't very important in starting the ball rolling. 

Good to call out Harding.

On Hoddle re Gullit, I went to Spain in 96 in-between jobs, flight delayed so missed the last bus and got a cab 

Talking in beginners Spanish mentioned I was a Chelsea fan and no reaction, mentioned the players and instantly when he heard Gullit then he knew who Chelsea were, the penny had dropped.

 

[martin1905]

Funny, Droy says it was because of the money, ROTG says its because of free transfers.

Yet they both agree, it's hard to follow them at times but I think they both agree, Gullit, Hughes, Vialli, Zola, Di Matteo and who/what came after Hoddle were/was an important part of our history.

No Hoddle, no Gullit or Hughes. No Gullit or Hughes. No Vialli, Zola and Di Matteo.

Glenn Hoddle opened the door to everything by bringing in Gullit but oh no he only had a 34% win record so he was irrelevant.

Because Droy said so.

[thevelourfog]

Seems really simple to me, and half way between both polars. Hoddle's mere presence  was of great significance in attracting the soft of players from Europe who would not have heard of Chelsea, never mind considered signing for them, before 1995 or so. And this was important for what happened next. But his actual coaching or management ... Well, his whole career quite clearly evidences that was nothing special.

So I guess a lot of credit should go to whoever it was convinced Hoddle to come.

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, Ham said:

Droy and ROTG in a competition to see who can move the most goalposts and introduce the most strawmen. 

The perfect storm. 

Yeah thanks Ham. 
 

I doff my hat to someone who has a belief in a never ending story. 

[Dwmh]

2 hours ago, asvaberg said:

Re Gavin Peacock.

From what I can see of these clips, he was exactly what we've been missing for the last years- a goalscoring Striker 🙂

 

17 goals in 103 appearances.  I'll stick with Jackson.

5 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

Hoddle's mere presence  was of great significance in attracting the soft of players from Europe who would not have heard of Chelsea, never mind considered signing for them, before 1995 or so.

The only non-English club player to join Chelsea under Hoddle was 33 years old and on a big whack.

But certainly there was a long period of improvement going back to John Neal, Campbell, Porterfield and beyond.  And a few key figures that were here far longer than any 3 or 4 managers.
 

55 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Funny, Droy says it was because of the money, ROTG says its because of free transfers.

Yet they both agree, 

Yes money + free transfers with high wages = success.  1996/7 onwards.  Started when Hoddle put his hand in his pocket to sign Gullitt.

 

57 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

but I think they both agree, Gullit, Hughes, Vialli, Zola, Di Matteo and who/what came after Hoddle were/was an important part of our history.

Quite.  so you have to find a reason why Hoddle and not Porterfield and Campbell was  a significant factor.
Otherwise it is just mythology.
It wasn't results and he only signed one player from abroad.

 

[Dwmh]

14 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Yeah thanks Ham. 
 

I doff my hat to someone who has a belief in a never ending story. 

Indeed.  I could name a dozen much bigger stories which are entirely false that only exist because the media pushes them so hard.
And the funny thing is I am sure Ham could do the same.

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, boratsbrother said:

Fairer points this time but you still refuse to admit that it the appointment of Hoddle which  STARTED  the transformation of the club. 

Yes, the Bosman rule enabled us to afford Gullit but it was Hoddle who persuaded Gullit to come here.  Remember that at that time we had nothing which could attract a player of his stature. A club which had been a yoyo club, won nothing in decades, playing in front of a half empty stadium in a dump of a stadium well below the standard of the other clubs. 

Imho the important people who helped most to  transform the club were - Bates,  then Bates and Harding and Hutchinson.  Hoddle, then onto Rudd, Vialli, Ranieri. All of those characters played their part in the club's steady progression which lead to Roman and Jose. You can argue that Hoddle was the least important of those managers, but surely not argue he wasn't very important in starting the ball rolling. 

Not disagreeing with Hoddle starting the ball rolling. But that was season 3 when the better players arrived. 
 

prior to that Hoddle had brought in players like Mark Stein “will never forget the hat trick against the spuds including one of the penalties ever seen at SB” and he made the club pay £3.5m for Paul Furlong. “Although his late winning goal against QPR in the gray and orange kit is one to savour”

I will us the @paulw66 and @Ham phrase of the week

i’m out

Toodles