Crystal Palace 1 Chelsea 3

[east lower]

On 10/02/2024 at 10:38, xceleryx said:

1) We're not worse than what we were under Potter if you take a step back and look at the larger picture. In fact, it's entirely pointless in trying to draw comparisons anyway. Potter had a seasoned team with plenty of experience and proven quantities, where as Poch is at the helm of the youngest team in the league that's only been together for the last 7-8 months. 

2) No lazier than attempting to pass a subjective statement as an absolute. In YOUR opinion there's been far more negatives, for others there's ability to also find and present plenty of positives. This will largely depend on what each persons expectations were going into the season. If you had higher expectations then naturally it's going to be easier to find more negatives, if you expected us to be in and around where we are then automatically the perspective of the situation changes. 

Again, "curated" is a perfectly valid choice of word. Just because there's complaints by some doesn't magically mean those who've made decisions are unqualified. This is a project, projects generally have phases, and we're still at the early part of that. We'll know more over the coming windows as we move into these next phases, as these will give us a clearer picture of what this team is going to truely look like. I, and others, although maybe not you, are content with the initial nucleus we've assembled. 

3) Honestly, I entirely unbothered by what others think or feel at this point in time. We're like 8 months in with the side as it is, it's going to take addition time to truly gauge where we're at and what the future holds. While the Chelsea name may have been synonymous with trophies over the last 20 years, football changes and this club has gone through something no other has had to navigate its way through. We're in a new era now, looking back at what was literally adds no value to the current cause. Carry that mentality for long enough and we'll end up looking like Liverpool clinging to their success of the 80's before they turned it around under Klopp. 

My cards are pretty clearly on the table as regards the ownership, as are yours and I respect but don't broadly agree with them.

Consider this, they are 20 months into their ownership, in bullet point answers tell me what areas they have made improvements. 

Quantified and tangible improvements, I see very few and they've got us on a financial knife-edge whilst doing so.

[xceleryx]

48 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

You won't even deal with the fact that we have less points than at this stage last season. Last season, which was a historic failure for our club. You don't care about the fact that just 1.8% of Chelsea fans think the club is being run very well. So there's no point in going deeper into running stats etc.

Frankly, it makes me sad to see Chelsea fans being labeled as entitled, obsessed with the past and implied words like "hissy fit" being used against us. Most serious Chelsea fans actually understand the game of football much more deeply than those in charge of our club - we recognize the obvious faults with our team that are not being addressed and will lead to ongoing systemic failure.

The owners weren't expecting this kind of fan reaction - but they should take it on board and adjust the strategy accordingly. Okay, they don't need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but a few experienced players and characters we can identify with are badly needed. Integrating players like Connor who care and fight for the badge - unique qualities that won't show up in data models.

But they won't do it. They won't buy experience in summer, and Gallagher and Silva look set to be going. Therefore the cycle with continue - our young talents will never reach their potential in a squad without leaders to show them the way. We can have the best of both worlds. Young, emerging talent and a squad that competes at the top of the league. But not with this current "project".

You should care about what fans think because it will massively influence the success of this "project". Like we saw with Potter, if the fans aren't on board, the "project" will fail. The answer isn't to criticise the fans. The answer is to criticise the owners for failing to understand what club they have taken over, what business they are in, and fight for change so we can all move forward together.

Because believe it or not Max, points and league position aren't necessarily the be all that ends all when it comes to judging if a side is doing better or not. This 1.8% an arbitrary number you've just plucked or have you gone to the effort to research this, yet can't go that little bit further to provide anything deeper? 

You're entitled to feel how you choose with respects to that, it doesn't it make it any less true or inaccurate. This applies to fans of other football clubs and not just ours I might add. Many hold an air of entitlement towards their club and where they think they should be because of their history or past.

The owners probably weren't expecting us to be in a cup final either, or to have the list of injuries that we have, or for Bob that sits in the Shed End to be sick and not able to attend as many games as he did previously. Why would they adjust a strategy that they've planned out, then begun, without knowing whether it'll be successful or not, purely because some fans aren't happy about where things currently sit? Are you going to be unhappy if this process sees us a better team in an another couple years? Of course not. Again, I don't agree with everything they've done and think the more nuance is needed with respecting and understanding the history of not just the club, but also football as a whole. The Gallagher situation is one that I'm not pleased about personally, which I've made known already.

You're speaking in absolutes without any of it having taken place. Then treating it as if it's happened as a means to try and validate your displeasure. What's the lotto numbers while you're at it? We don't know what the upcoming summer transfer window is going to look like. 

Potter didn't fail because of the fans, he failed because he was out of his depth. Listening to fans is important to a degree, but it's not the be all that ends all either. Once upon a time our fans used to boo Drogba. That goes to show just how fickle we are.

 

[Dwmh]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

You won't even deal with the fact that we have less points than at this stage last season. Last season, which was a historic failure for our club. You don't care about the fact that just 1.8% of Chelsea fans think the club is being run very well. So there's no point in going deeper into running stats etc.

Frankly, it makes me sad to see Chelsea fans being labeled as entitled, obsessed with the past and implied words like "hissy fit" being used against us. Most serious Chelsea fans actually understand the game of football much more deeply than those in charge of our club - we recognize the obvious faults with our team that are not being addressed and will lead to ongoing systemic failure.

Max I really wouldn't worry about what the 1.8% say about the 90% unless they have some evidence to talk about.

It is true that the 90% are now split:  

• Some accepted a collapse in team quality and are now relaxed about a team that got 44 points and is no happy to be a 50-60 point team in the hope that it might make 60 ponts next season.
• There are others who still identify that enormous errors were made (players sold, or bought, or imbalanced squad or FFP mismanagement or contracts) , and are horrified that the people who made those errors are sill in place..  So according to what they are most horrified by they blame:
  • Scouting team
  • Board/owners
  • Poch and/or Lampard and/or Potter

There is still a lot of anger out there, it is just no all aimed at the same people.
(But I bet I know who Clearlake blame).

33 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Because believe it or not Max, points and league position aren't necessarily the be all that ends all when it comes to judging if a side is doing better or not

Nobody believes that except when they really need it (Hoddle).

 

[Max Fowler]

12 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Because believe it or not Max, points and league position aren't necessarily the be all that ends all when it comes to judging if a side is doing better or not. This 1.8% an arbitrary number you've just plucked or have you gone to the effort to research this, yet can't go that little bit further to provide anything deeper? 

You're entitled to feel how you choose with respects to that, it doesn't it make it any less true or inaccurate. This applies to fans of other football clubs and not just ours I might add. Many hold an air of entitlement towards their club and where they think they should be because of their history or past.

The owners probably weren't expecting us to be in a cup final either, or to have the list of injuries that we have, or for Bob that sits in the Shed End to be sick and not able to attend as many games as he did previously. Why would they adjust a strategy that they've planned out, then begun, without knowing whether it'll be successful or not, purely because some fans aren't happy about where things currently sit? Are you going to be unhappy if this process sees us a better team in an another couple years? Of course not. Again, I don't agree with everything they've done and think the more nuance is needed with respecting and understanding the history of not just the club, but also football as a whole. The Gallagher situation is one that I'm not pleased about personally, which I've made known already.

You're speaking in absolutes without any of it having taken place. Then treating it as if it's happened as a means to try and validate your displeasure. What's the lotto numbers while you're at it? We don't know what the upcoming summer transfer window is going to look like. 

Potter didn't fail because of the fans, he failed because he was out of his depth. Listening to fans is important to a degree, but it's not the be all that ends all either. Once upon a time our fans used to boo Drogba. That goes to show just how fickle we are.

Points are pretty much the be all and end all I am afraid, especially this far into a season. We would all love to be playing beautiful football with good lads doing their bit for charity, but if we're doing it in the Championship none of us are going to happy.

The 1.8% number was from the Athletic survey, surveyed from nearly 3000 fans.

So, you admit the owners need to have more understanding of football, great. Understanding the culture is also about paying attention to the history of the club and the fans' expectations. Hence why Levy got it so right with Postecoglou, who plays the brand of football Spurs long to see (fair enough - you called him as a good shout for our manager).

You are being too defensive about them "adjusting the strategy". Of course they are going to do it as they go, any multi-billion dollar company doesn't just blindly put a four year plan and not critique it at various points along the way. But these owners are both a) too stubborn and set in their ways b) too interested in maximising  the profit they can squeeze out of the club. 

Potter didn't fail because of the fans - but he got fired so early because of the fans. If our fans supported him every step of the way, there was no way Boehly would have moved on his boy. So will Poch, and these owners will be forced out for the same reasons if they are not careful. 

[RDCW]

38 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Because believe it or not Max, points and league position aren't necessarily the be all that ends all when it comes to judging if a side is doing better or not. This 1.8% an arbitrary number you've just plucked or have you gone to the effort to research this, yet can't go that little bit further to provide anything deeper? 

You're entitled to feel how you choose with respects to that, it doesn't it make it any less true or inaccurate. This applies to fans of other football clubs and not just ours I might add. Many hold an air of entitlement towards their club and where they think they should be because of their history or past.

The owners probably weren't expecting us to be in a cup final either, or to have the list of injuries that we have, or for Bob that sits in the Shed End to be sick and not able to attend as many games as he did previously. Why would they adjust a strategy that they've planned out, then begun, without knowing whether it'll be successful or not, purely because some fans aren't happy about where things currently sit? Are you going to be unhappy if this process sees us a better team in an another couple years? Of course not. Again, I don't agree with everything they've done and think the more nuance is needed with respecting and understanding the history of not just the club, but also football as a whole. The Gallagher situation is one that I'm not pleased about personally, which I've made known already.

You're speaking in absolutes without any of it having taken place. Then treating it as if it's happened as a means to try and validate your displeasure. What's the lotto numbers while you're at it? We don't know what the upcoming summer transfer window is going to look like. 

Potter didn't fail because of the fans, he failed because he was out of his depth. Listening to fans is important to a degree, but it's not the be all that ends all either. Once upon a time our fans used to boo Drogba. That goes to show just how fickle we are.

 

I don't think matchgoing fans are actually all that fickle. We do have an idea of what we expect from our players, mainly around effort, intelligence and evidence of coaching.

Drogba was booed because he dived. I remember it well. There was a lot of anger about a specific attempt to cheat which we hadn't really seen before at The Bridge and which we associated with North London and Northern clubs. Our traditionally acceptable form of cheating was specifically in the realm of violence, so Drogba's antics were seen as effete. The reaction largely stopped him from diving (although there was the later winking episode which elicited a certain amount of media hysteria) and he was never booed again.

[Max Fowler]

2 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Max I really wouldn't worry about what the 1.8% say about the 90% unless they have some evidence to talk about.

It is true that the 90% are now split:  

• Some accepted a collapse in team quality and are now relaxed about a team that got 44 points and is no happy to be a 50-60 point team in the hope that it might make 60 ponts next season.
• There are others who still identify that enormous errors were made (players sold, or bought, or imbalanced squad or FFP mismanagement or contracts) , and are horrified that the people who made those errors are sill in place..  So according to what they are most horrified by they blame:
  • Scouting team
  • Board/owners
  • Poch and/or Lampard and/or Potter

There is still a lot of anger out there, it is just no all aimed at the same people.
(But I bet I know who Clearlake blame).

Nobody believes that except when they really need it (Hoddle).

 

Also given that we are likely facing a huge points deduction next season, we all know what will happen if we put in another season like the last two... how does that figure in your four year plan @xceleryx?

[RDCW]

1 minute ago, Max Fowler said:

Also given that we are likely facing a huge points deduction next season, we all know what will happen if we put in another season like the last two... how does that figure in your four year plan @xceleryx?

I'd be astonished if we are actually in breach of the regs. Our problems are more to do with future ability to buy and sell players since Clearlake have gone all in on their "strategy" to game the ffp rules.

 

[Max Fowler]

🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱

 

 

[Max Fowler]

4 minutes ago, RDCW said:

I'd be astonished if we are actually in breach of the regs. Our problems are more to do with future ability to buy and sell players since Clearlake have gone all in on their "strategy" to game the ffp rules.

I meant due to the outstanding existing FFP charges from the Abramovich era. But I agree 👍

[Dwmh]

Has anyone seen or heard of TB since way before Christmas.  A window has been and gone and nothing.
Convinces me that the next move is a Clearlake exit, with TB either upping his stake or more likely exiting too.
Fingers crossed

 

3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

🥱🥱🥱🥱🥱

 

 

Poch is saying:  Someone shot our legs off and left me with 13* over 21 outfield players to see out a whole season and most of them are 22 or 23.  My goal is to see out the season as best we can and manage expectations accordingly.

Good or Rubbish, he is saying the right things.

*Fofana, Chalobah and Nkunku(now James) and 4 GKs make up the full O21 squad of 20.

I
 

[thevelourfog]

1 hour ago, east lower said:

Quantified and tangible improvements, I see very few and they've got us on a financial knife-edge whilst doing so.

Anyone saying it's somehow "too early" to judge these owners simply doesn't understand how dangerous the spending and loss of revenue is for the club, just how precarious our financial situation now seems to be. Where the hell has the upfront capital for our purchases come from and what will they want in return?

Easy to not care if other supporters aren't happy with the owners if you're thousands of miles away and aren't going to get hit for an extra few hundred quid from May because of disastrous decisions these prats have made. I know some won't like me saying that, but it is not about questioning how much of a supporter anyone from any place or walk of life is. It's about acknowledging what these owners do has greater consequences for some Chelsea fans than it does others.

[Max Fowler]

14 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Has anyone seen or heard of TB since way before Christmas.  A window has been and gone and nothing.
Convinces me that the next move is a Clearlake exit, with TB either upping his stake or more likely exiting too.
Fingers crossed

My understanding is that Todd is actually only a small minority shareholder compared to Eghbali who represents Clearlake. Boehly is focussing on the more commercial side of Chelsea but seems to have also withdrawn his overall involvement in the club. There were some rumours that Eghbali and Boehly may have fallen out but not sure how true they are. Perhaps Eghbali and the other shareholders will take a different sporting direction if Todd's youth project continues to fail. Either way, I don't think the owners can leave for another 8 years - so we better put up or better continue kicking up a fuss so they can plan their escape route.

[Dwmh]

19 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

My understanding is that Todd is actually only a small minority shareholder compared to Eghbali who represents Clearlake. Boehly is focussing on the more commercial side of Chelsea but seems to have also withdrawn his overall involvement in the club. There were some rumours that Eghbali and Boehly may have fallen out but not sure how true they are. Perhaps Eghbali and the other shareholders will take a different sporting direction if Todd's youth project continues to fail. Either way, I don't think the owners can leave for another 8 years - so we better put up or better continue kicking up a fuss so they can plan their escape route.

So that to me sounds like both are trying to pass the buck to the other.
10 year agreements are PR announcement, not commitments.  You don't make Hedge fund investments on 10 year investments.
Probably there is a holding company which made the commitment but can be sold whole.
There is no law that says they must stay 10 years so it is a commitment to some body, perhaps RA,  perhaps the FA, perhaps the UK Government.  Why would  anyone insist on it being kept?
[Who is the bastard that is stopping the Creamcakes from exiting!!!!  Name them.  Shame them.]

I don't believe Chelsea's financial position is as desperate as some do.  But they seem to have spent the budget for the next 7 years.   At least the non- CL entry budget.
We become a cost cutting club from now on, and that doesn't fit the Creamcake portfolio.
 

[thevelourfog]

Just now, Dwmh said:

I don't believe Chelsea's financial position is as desperate as some do.  But they seem to have spent the budget for the next 7 years.   At least the non- CL entry budget.
We become a cost cutting club from now on, and that doesn't fit the Creamcake portfolio.

I have the same worry as you, so maybe it's less that I think the situation is more desperate than you do, and more that I feel more desperate about it!

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

So that to me sounds like both are trying to pass the buck to the other.
10 year agreements are PR announcement, not commitments.  You don't make Hedge fund investments on 10 year investments.
Probably there is a holding company which made the commitment but can be sold whole.
There is no law that says they must stay 10 years so it is a commitment to some body, perhaps RA,  perhaps the FA, perhaps the UK Government.  Why would  anyone insist on it being kept?
[Who is the bastard that is stopping the Creamcakes from exiting!!!!  Name them.  Shame them.]

I don't believe Chelsea's financial position is as desperate as some do.  But they seem to have spent the budget for the next 7 years.   At least the non- CL entry budget.
We become a cost cutting club from now on, and that doesn't fit the Creamcake portfolio.
 

Seems like it was ironed into sale process. I am no legal expert, but just like a condition of the new owners was not to load our club with debt, another was:

"Control owners can’t sell their stakes in the team for at least 10 years. “They can’t sell secondary or sell down their stakes,” said one source. “They can bring additional investment to the balance sheet, but they’re limited in that as well."

Would seem like we are stuck with them.

https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Journal/Issues/2022/06/27/Upfront/Chelsea.aspx

[Dwmh]

6 minutes ago, thevelourfog said:

I have the same worry as you, so maybe it's less that I think the situation is more desperate than you do, and more that I feel more desperate about it!

I am probably just more resigned to it, as I see it in the context of a West whose collapse is becoming more and more evident this decade.
But I am quite staggered how people carry on blindly as if nothing is happening.

 

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Seems like it was ironed into sale process. I am no legal expert, but just like a condition of the new owners was not to load our club with debt, another was:

"Control owners can’t sell their stakes in the team for at least 10 years. “They can’t sell secondary or sell down their stakes,” said one source. “They can bring additional investment to the balance sheet, but they’re limited in that as well."

Would seem like we are stuck with them.

https://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/Journal/Issues/2022/06/27/Upfront/Chelsea.aspx

No - if it is not law, it is an agreement signed with a counter party.  So can be unagreed with the same counter party.

Why is it everyone picks up on tone and ignores details and logic.

Suppose I sell you my car and stick a condition that you cannot sell it for 10 years in the agreement.  Suppose you then lose your license or otherwise show you are not a compatent car driver.  Why on earth would I chose to exercise my right to prevent you from selling it?
What kind of xxxx would enforce that?

(Better for the audience - Dog and competent Dog owner).

[Sciatika]

You might place a condition on the sale that means you get some part of the sale value. You would do it for the money. 

[Bert19]

So anyway…. Palace vs Chelsea tomorrow night 

[Mark Kelly]

10 minutes ago, Bert19 said:

So anyway…. Palace vs Chelsea tomorrow night 

I can't believe you fell for that one, everyone knows you can't believe anything you read in the media. 

[east lower]

Not much interest in the mid/lower mid-table London derby tonight is there.

This is what we have become, no interest, no threat and only brought up by others for the purposes of ridicule and giggles.

It’s not been a great two years.

[My Blood Is Blue]

Badiashile ruled out for at least a month.

Colwill is in contention to play tonight.

Will Poch bring Silva back in or go with Colwill?

[Sciatika]

I'd go with Colwill if he can play for an hour. Where is Trev? I thought he was (nearly) available.

[My Blood Is Blue]

31 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

I'd go with Colwill if he can play for an hour. Where is Trev? I thought he was (nearly) available.

Yeah, so would I, worry Poch will go back to Silva though.

Chalobah is close I think, but having been out for so long, he’ll probably have to do quite a bit of proper training before he can be considered. Be nice to see him back in the squad for the final.

[Max Fowler]

Yes Poch. This is what I want to hear.