Chelsea 2 Burnley 2

[Chelsea_Matt]

7 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Adding to this Chara, and you'll probably understand this yourself from your own experience, but it's also not always easy as a player to go out there and implement the instructions of a coach. Even if you understand what's being asked, actually applying that in match conditions isn't necessarily straight forward either. 

There's going to be plenty of occasions where it just doesn't happen, be that because the opposition aren't allowing it, fighting for momentum, your players are off their game, don't have the personality, the skillset, the mentality, etc. It's such a complex and layered concept and this no doubt goes well over the head of most average sports fans, especially those who've never really played a sport in competitive environments. 

We look better coached this season than we did last season IMO. While I don't believe Poch is the man to progress us into a trophy winning team or even a title challenger longer term, for me he's still a suitable stepping stone option for where we are right now. But again, we're also an incomplete side that's dealing with a few problems that sit on the extreme end of the scales. Youngest side in the league, second shortest side on average, laundry list of injuries, a freshly constructed group of players, etc. Not the most conventional of environments and one I imagine many managers would also have their struggles handling. 

I can’t see the difference between this season and last. At all. 
 

Anyone…? 💀👀🙃

[east lower]

36 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

I can’t see the difference between this season and last. At all. 
 

Anyone…? 💀👀🙃

Between Potter and the current coach, not much. You can argue that Potter’s team performed at a way better level than this one, if you isolate the Champions League performances. 
 

I actually think that if you gave Potter the additional players that have brought in this season, he might have gotten more from them than this current bloke.

[Max Fowler]

39 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

I can’t see the difference between this season and last. At all. 
 

Anyone…? 💀👀🙃

I think some people get confused because we are scoring a lot more goals. In fairness, it's generally more fun to watch a 2-2 draw than a 0-0. But it's rarely pointed out that we have effectively sacrificed our defensive solidity for more attacking fluency. Hence some are claiming we are much better this season, when in fact we are similarly easy to beat but for slightly different reasons.

[asvaberg]

24 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I think some people get confused because we are scoring a lot more goals. In fairness, it's generally more fun to watch a 2-2 draw than a 0-0. But it's rarely pointed out that we have effectively sacrificed our defensive solidity for more attacking fluency. Hence some are claiming we are much better this season, when in fact we are similarly easy to beat but for slightly different reasons.

Interesting.

I would, in addition, like to see a comparison for every club coached by Poch - before and after he joined, preferably whole seasons, with goals scored and conceded.

I have a feeling he is a terrible coach defense-wise.

 

[Chelsea_Matt]

34 minutes ago, asvaberg said:

Interesting.

I would, in addition, like to see a comparison for every club coached by Poch - before and after he joined, preferably whole seasons, with goals scored and conceded.

I have a feeling he is a terrible coach defense-wise.

 

Good call. I expect the stats are out there somewhere.💯🩶 🇳🇴 

[Max Fowler]

14 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

Hardly any of those players are leaders what they are is doing what they're told and under the direction of proper coaching whereas we have a space hopper. 

I think you might have an old-fashioned view of leadership Mark, but it has actually raised some interesting questions about who in our squad has leadership potential in its different forms. For example, Palmer could be a leader on the pitch in terms of taking responsibility for goal contributions (a bit like Hazard, who incidentally was a terrible trainer).

Caicedo could be a quiet leader like Kante in terms of setting an example with running and winning the ball back. Gallagher is undoubtedly a leader (in making) in terms of the passion he shows and how much he gets stuck in.

Reece and maybe even Chilwell could be types of leaders but they are just injured far too often.

I think many of us feel that this squad isn't that far away from being a lot better than it currently is. Even with 2-3 properly experienced (PL?) players it could be transformed. The biggest issue is - and what those lauding our squad fail to address - is that seemingly there are absolutely no plans to buy more experience, rather sell more it off.

People will claim there is no evidence we will sell Gallagher and of course we have to wait and see. But I repeat - it seems far more likely that we sell Gallagher, Silva, and even James than buy additions to complement their leadership qualities.

[boratsbrother]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

I think some people get confused because we are scoring a lot more goals. In fairness, it's generally more fun to watch a 2-2 draw than a 0-0. But it's rarely pointed out that we have effectively sacrificed our defensive solidity for more attacking fluency. Hence some are claiming we are much better this season, when in fact we are similarly easy to beat but for slightly different reasons.

We have improved two significantly weak areas of the team while one of them has become weaker. By any metric that has to be seen as an improvemt! Just one commanding CB and a big reduction in our defenders having brain farts will significantly improve that defence and gain us more points. Fixing that defence is a lot easier than fixing an attack and midfield which had been shite for years.

For years we had that turgid,, sterile midfield which couldn't create or score in an Ansterdsm brothel. Watching endless 5 yard passes from Jorginho. Watching Kova run with the ball in the middle of the pitch for ten yards then start running sideways and looking for someone else to do the hard bit of work in actually trying to do something with the ball. Over and over again, game after game, season after season we would see exactly the same passages of play for them. For the vast majority of games during that era I genuinely thought we were horrendous to watch and I know neutrals thought the same about us. At least these days we go into games knowing that we can create and score and don't shit the bed whenever any team scores one goal against us. At least these days we don't have managers who cowardly send a team out who were shit scared of the top teams and tried to park the bus in hope of grinding out an embarrassing 0-0 draw. Some of those displays against City were quite shameful! 

Frustrating as hell we might be, but dull and boring we are not!  We go from the sublime to the ridiculous from one minute to the next  We scored  a wonderful goal on Saturday with that Sterling/Palmer combination and the next minute our players are trying to kill pigeons with their shots. Players shooting into their own net. Keeper almost punching the ball into his net.  No wonder commentators are saying we are great fun to watch.

Of course, to get back up there we will have to iron out the stupid play, but for now, I'm happy enough being entertained with the crazy way we play.

 

[Ham]

3 hours ago, Siidi said:

 

The problem of us limping to the finishing line has been there from the start. The manager has done nothing about it, just like our far post defending, our inability to break down any team, our game management, and more. We need a leader and it's called a coach.

That's where the crucial long term injuries in midfield and defence come in.

We're having to flog certain players to death. 

Of course they're tired.  I'm surprised Enzo and Caicedo haven't broken down yet. 

[Mark Kelly]

29 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I think you might have an old-fashioned view of leadership Mark, but it has actually raised some interesting questions about who in our squad has leadership potential in its different forms. For example, Palmer could be a leader on the pitch in terms of taking responsibility for goal contributions (a bit like Hazard, who incidentally was a terrible trainer).

Caicedo could be a quiet leader like Kante in terms of setting an example with running and winning the ball back. Gallagher is undoubtedly a leader (in making) in terms of the passion he shows and how much he gets stuck in.

Reece and maybe even Chilwell could be types of leaders but they are just injured far too often.

I think many of us feel that this squad isn't that far away from being a lot better than it currently is. Even with 2-3 properly experienced (PL?) players it could be transformed. The biggest issue is - and what those lauding our squad fail to address - is that seemingly there are absolutely no plans to buy more experience, rather sell more it off.

People will claim there is no evidence we will sell Gallagher and of course we have to wait and see. But I repeat - it seems far more likely that we sell Gallagher, Silva, and even James than buy additions to complement their leadership qualities.

No. I think you don't know what a leader is hence the list of non leaders you posted previously and this utter nonsense . 

[Max Fowler]

4 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

We have improved two significantly weak areas of the team while one of them has become weaker. By any metric that has to be seen as an improvemt! Just one commanding CB and a big reduction in our defenders having brain farts will significantly improve that defence and gain us more points. Fixing that defence is a lot easier than fixing an attack and midfield which had been shite for years.

For years we had that turgid,, sterile midfield which couldn't create or score in an Ansterdsm brothel. Watching endless 5 yard passes from Jorginho. Watching Kova run with the ball in the middle of the pitch for ten yards then start running sideways and looking for someone else to do the hard bit of work in actually trying to do something with the ball. Over and over again, game after game, season after season we would see exactly the same passages of play for them. For the vast majority of games during that era I genuinely thought we were horrendous to watch and I know neutrals thought the same about us. At least these days we go into games knowing that we can create and score and don't shit the bed whenever any team scores one goal against us. At least these days we don't have managers who cowardly send a team out who were shit scared of the top teams and tried to park the bus in hope of grinding out an embarrassing 0-0 draw. Some of those displays against City were quite shameful! 

Frustrating as hell we might be, but dull and boring we are not!  We go from the sublime to the ridiculous from one minute to the next  We scored  a wonderful goal on Saturday with that Sterling/Palmer combination and the next minute our players are trying to kill pigeons with their shots. Players shooting into their own net. Keeper almost punching the ball into his net.  No wonder commentators are saying we are great fun to watch.

Of course, to get back up there we will have to iron out the stupid play, but for now, I'm happy enough being entertained with the crazy way we play.

Our fluid attack relies on being incredibly open and turning the game into a basketball match. Fair play to Poch for sticking to his guns, but the points show we haven't really improved.

I loved watching us control matches under the likes of Tuchel and further back. Yes our attack had been stale for a while, and the new ownership may have actually made at least one of our best attacking signings in recent years in Palmer (I also quite like Jackson tbh).

There is no fun for me in scoring when it's obvious we will concede. I don't value not being bored over not being frustrated. If we dominate games I am never bored. I want to see Chelsea be successful and whether or not the neutrals find our games fun is meaningless. 

We may become a half decent team if the board invests in a few world class players in key positions (will they want to join anyway?) But the board will not be doing that I'm afraid.

[Max Fowler]

7 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

No. I think you don't know what a leader is hence the list of non leaders you posted previously and this utter nonsense . 

Charming Mark. I would love this era to still contain the Ballacks and Gattusos of the world but frankly we are in a different era. We need to look for players who can bring different leadership qualities to the table, set an example, and take this team by the scruff of the neck. All of the aforementioned players do that for their respective teams, in their own ways.

[Mark Kelly]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Our fluid attack relies on being incredibly open and turning the game into a basketball match. Fair play to Poch for sticking to his guns, but the points show we haven't really improved.

I loved watching us control matches under the likes of Tuchel and further back. Yes our attack had been stale for a while, and the new ownership may have actually made at least one of our best attacking signings in recent years in Palmer (I also quite like Jackson tbh).

There is no fun for me in scoring when it's obvious we will concede. I don't value not being bored over not being frustrated. If we dominate games I am never bored. I want to see Chelsea be successful and whether or not the neutrals find our games fun is meaningless. 

We may become a half decent team if the board invests in a few world class players in key positions (will they want to join anyway?) But the board will not be doing that I'm afraid.

Poch has decided that were too small to bother working out defending set pieces so almost every time we defend one we concede .

If he , and stay with me here as it's a crazy thought , coaches them into being more organised and scouted the opposition properly so our taller players could match up with their taller players I feel we'd be less susceptible to it .

But it's difficult to get in the right defensive shape when you're running laps .

[Mark Kelly]

5 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Charming Mark. I would love this era to still contain the Ballacks and Gattusos of the world but frankly we are in a different era. We need to look for players who can bring different leadership qualities to the table, set an example, and take this team by the scruff of the neck. All of the aforementioned players do that for their respective teams, in their own ways.

All our issues can be solved by proper coaching . 

We need organisation , patterns of play , a plan for transition from defence to attack we have nothing but running too much .

Poch is the issue , not leaders , not experience , Poch.

[east lower]

14 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Charming Mark. I would love this era to still contain the Ballacks and Gattusos of the world but frankly we are in a different era. We need to look for players who can bring different leadership qualities to the table, set an example, and take this team by the scruff of the neck. All of the aforementioned players do that for their respective teams, in their own ways.

They’re out there Max, but the leaders behind the pitch and let’s face facts - ours have hardly been a raging success at finding them.

Red scum - Van Dyke and formally Henderson 

Gooners - Rice

Man City - Diaz

Ours - ???????

Those named generally perform like leaders on the pitch and snarl, growl at those around them to perform.

Then look at the coaches of those teams, chalk and cheese compared to ours. Ours takes the one person who will do that and ostracises him, the one bloke who will attack the ball from set-pieces. First class ***ker, who’s now realised he can’t cut it, so is starting the “it wasn’t me” narrative. 

Edited April 1 by east lower

[Max Fowler]

57 minutes ago, east lower said:

They’re out there Max, but the leaders behind the pitch and let’s face facts - ours have hardly been a raging success at finding them.

Red scum - Van Dyke and formally Henderson 

Gooners - Rice

Man City - Diaz

Ours - ???????

Those named generally perform like leaders on the pitch and snarl, growl at those around them to perform.

Then look at the coaches of those teams, chalk and cheese compared to ours. Ours takes the one person who will do that and ostracises him, the one bloke who will attack the ball from set-pieces. First class ***ker, who’s now realised he can’t cut it, so is starting the “it wasn’t me” narrative. 

In fairness I'm not convinced Arteta is a better manager than Poch. The team above him is better at squad building and they've bought plenty of Premier League experience, physical and leadership qualities that raised their level.

[east lower]

8 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

In fairness I'm not convinced Arteta is a better manager than Poch. The team above him is better at squad building and they've bought plenty of Premier League experience, physical and leadership qualities that raised their level.

If you've not already done so, take a look a the behind the scenes  series they did at Arsenal (same principle as the Sunderland one and Juventus).

That was done in the season they got shot of Aubamayang,  not a great season for them. I don't like a lot of Arteta's ways but you can see why players run for him snd believe in him. 

[Max Fowler]

6 minutes ago, east lower said:

If you've not already done so, take a look a the behind the scenes  series they did at Arsenal (same principle as the Sunderland one and Juventus).

That was done in the season they got shot of Aubamayang,  not a great season for them. I don't like a lot of Arteta's ways but you can see why players run for him snd believe in him. 

I probably won't watch but I take your point. IMO  neither Poch nor Arteta have proven they are elite managers.

[Siidi]

1 hour ago, Ham said:

That's where the crucial long term injuries in midfield and defence come in.

We're having to flog certain players to death. 

Of course they're tired.  I'm surprised Enzo and Caicedo haven't broken down yet. 

Funny though how we went from the biggest squad in the country or in Europe to one where certain players are overplayed. Or are they overplayed? We were not involved in Europe, and ours is a young squad. I don't see how we played more games than others. 

The problem of players looking tired or disinterested in the second half has been there since the start of the season. It's hard to blame it on fatigue 

[east lower]

8 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I probably won't watch but I take your point. IMO  neither Poch nor Arteta have proven they are elite managers.

Won two more trophies than our bloke and to be frank has his team performing (unfortunately) really well. 

You want to try and bully them or out-play them and they stand-up.

They're up to all sorts of trucks as well now, just like Man Utd and Liverpool did/do - Saka, far too injured to join up with Endland, ran his legs off in yesterday's game. Again the FA/PL could stop this crap happening - a simple rule where if a club says their player is too injured to join the squad then they cannot play for their club in their next two fixtures  - sorted. 

Edited April 1 by east lower

[boratsbrother]

2 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Our fluid attack relies on being incredibly open and turning the game into a basketball match. Fair play to Poch for sticking to his guns, but the points show we haven't really improved.

I loved watching us control matches under the likes of Tuchel and further back. Yes our attack had been stale for a while, and the new ownership may have actually made at least one of our best attacking signings in recent years in Palmer (I also quite like Jackson tbh).

There is no fun for me in scoring when it's obvious we will concede. I don't value not being bored over not being frustrated. If we dominate games I am never bored. I want to see Chelsea be successful and whether or not the neutrals find our games fun is meaningless. 

We may become a half decent team if the board invests in a few world class players in key positions (will they want to join anyway?) But the board will not be doing that I'm afraid.

But our pints not improving is entirely down to those defensive problems costing us so many points. Even with an average defence we'd be top six this season. Those defensive problems/ brain farts have cancelled out the significant improvement in the other two improvements to the team. 

Even with all faults still in this team, with the improvement in creativity and scoring and the potential improvements in this team,  if we still had Rudi, Christensen, Alonso and a fit James and Chilly, we'd be competing with Villa, Spurs and Utd for top four this season. No team can be top four while giving away shedloads of silly goals like we do, but I am sure this problem can and will be sorted over the next year, regardless of who the manager is.

 

 

[Mark Kelly]

25 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

But our pints not improving is entirely down to those defensive problems costing us so many points. Even with an average defence we'd be top six this season. Those defensive problems/ brain farts have cancelled out the significant improvement in the other two improvements to the team. 

Even with all faults still in this team, with the improvement in creativity and scoring and the potential improvements in this team,  if we still had Rudi, Christensen, Alonso and a fit James and Chilly, we'd be competing with Villa, Spurs and Utd for top four this season. No team can be top four while giving away shedloads of silly goals like we do, but I am sure this problem can and will be sorted over the next year, regardless of who the manager is.

 

 

It'll be sorted week one of getting a proper coach in.  Guaranteed.

[Chelsea_Matt]

3 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

I think you might have an old-fashioned view of leadership Mark, but it has actually raised some interesting questions about who in our squad has leadership potential in its different forms. For example, Palmer could be a leader on the pitch in terms of taking responsibility for goal contributions (a bit like Hazard, who incidentally was a terrible trainer).

Caicedo could be a quiet leader like Kante in terms of setting an example with running and winning the ball back. Gallagher is undoubtedly a leader (in making) in terms of the passion he shows and how much he gets stuck in.

Reece and maybe even Chilwell could be types of leaders but they are just injured far too often.

I think many of us feel that this squad isn't that far away from being a lot better than it currently is. Even with 2-3 properly experienced (PL?) players it could be transformed. The biggest issue is - and what those lauding our squad fail to address - is that seemingly there are absolutely no plans to buy more experience, rather sell more it off.

People will claim there is no evidence we will sell Gallagher and of course we have to wait and see. But I repeat - it seems far more likely that we sell Gallagher, Silva, and even James than buy additions to complement their leadership qualities.

Shows how good Azpi was as a captain now that he’s gone. 

[Max Fowler]

50 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

But our pints not improving is entirely down to those defensive problems costing us so many points. Even with an average defence we'd be top six this season. Those defensive problems/ brain farts have cancelled out the significant improvement in the other two improvements to the team. 

Even with all faults still in this team, with the improvement in creativity and scoring and the potential improvements in this team,  if we still had Rudi, Christensen, Alonso and a fit James and Chilly, we'd be competing with Villa, Spurs and Utd for top four this season. No team can be top four while giving away shedloads of silly goals like we do, but I am sure this problem can and will be sorted over the next year, regardless of who the manager is.

We played a 5-3-2 with Rüdiger, Christensen and Silva.

We are now playing Poch's far more open 4-4-2. Do you really think the board are going to make a Van Dijk signing to get close to our former defenders? Highly, highly unlikely. We're far more likely to go for the likes of a Guehi. 

You are isolating defence from attack as if we've improved our attack and now just need to improve our defence. Actually football is an intricately linked team sport where defence and attack are two sides of the same coin. 

We play less open, we concede less goals. But then we create less. 

The only solution is to buy world class players in key positions and you seem to be ignoring the fact that we are highly unlikely to prioritise doing that.

Edited April 1 by Max Fowler

[Chelsea_Matt]

50 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

But our pints not improving is entirely down to those defensive problems costing us so many points. Even with an average defence we'd be top six this season. Those defensive problems/ brain farts have cancelled out the significant improvement in the other two improvements to the team. 

Even with all faults still in this team, with the improvement in creativity and scoring and the potential improvements in this team,  if we still had Rudi, Christensen, Alonso and a fit James and Chilly, we'd be competing with Villa, Spurs and Utd for top four this season. No team can be top four while giving away shedloads of silly goals like we do, but I am sure this problem can and will be sorted over the next year, regardless of who the manager is.

 

 

What “significant” improvements?

[Ham]

1 hour ago, Siidi said:

Funny though how we went from the biggest squad in the country or in Europe to one where certain players are overplayed. Or are they overplayed? We were not involved in Europe, and ours is a young squad. I don't see how we played more games than others. 

The problem of players looking tired or disinterested in the second half has been there since the start of the season. It's hard to blame it on fatigue 

We've been unlucky inasmuch as we had 5 solid options for CM and then lost all of our cover long and multiple short term so that we can't even bring on like for like subs in a close game.

I seem to remember that after we'd sewn up Enzo, Caicedo and Lavia in the summer, we all thought we'd won the window and taken liberties with Liverpool. 

There's a lot of revisionism going on (Not aimed at you).