Chelsea 2 Burnley 2

[chara]

8 minutes ago, ROTG said:

Obviously not the three playing in the top of the shop shootout currently being played in Manchester. 

As you say.

[Siidi]

5 hours ago, kev61 said:

The creation of a top club takes a top manager - a team around him must be savvy and investment big 

The problem we have is we fail at the first hurdle  

Once players become convinced the manager doesn't  know what he's doing, they perform  worse than they are capable of as individual, hence the new manager bounce that follows. We are at that juncture, I'm afraid  

The new manager bounce is caused by players just playing to their abilities even without a manager. We could do with that right now. 

Edited March 31 by Siidi

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Sciatika said:

All problems involving people are always multivariate. 

Multivariate…………get you🤣😉

[east lower]

23 minutes ago, ROTG said:

The coach is only as good as the tools given to him. 
 

regardless of how @Ham tries to offset sales, the bottom line is the club spent 

Jan-23 window £330m, Summer -23 window £ 465m Total £795m on players which not a single coach had input to. 
 

you could count on one finger the number of those players who would be selected for any of the top six teams. Some might even and use the they were bidding for the players, which is correct however the other clubs walked way. 
 

When the likes of Neglesmann and Enrique say no thanks it give you a good idea what top coaches think of project Chelsea.  
 

if Poch gets 50pts this season, he deserves another season and input to summer recruitment so it can be called his team. Else we will have the same debate next season. 

He (the coach) has enough players at his disposal and of sufficient quality to be more than 1 point better-off than at the damp point as last season. He has his ‘team’ of other coaches including his son!

He’s a crap coach and the owner’s narrative that you mention is valid, but 50 points for this season ain’t cutting it for me.

I’ll give you an example, our best defender is fit, rested and ready to play. What does ego-maniac coach do, let’s leave him on the bench because his wife had the temerity to perhaps call me out - He’s a fanny, who would rather the team and the fans suffer the result of his little ‘lesson’ to a bloke who is four times the player that he ever was and ten times the man, he’ll ever in his life be.

Silva attacks the ball from set-pieces, no wonder we drew yesterday and lost a cup final.

[Siidi]

And to wade into the "experience" debate, there are aspects of the game that benefit from experience and there are aspects  that benefit from youth. Under Pochettino this young team often looks puffed out by the 60th minute. Can someone explain to me why having a few more older players would make us last longer, or have we already entered the era of reverse biology? 

[Mark Kelly]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

The coach is only as good as the tools given to him. 
 

regardless of how @Ham tries to offset sales, the bottom line is the club spent 

Jan-23 window £330m, Summer -23 window £ 465m Total £795m on players which not a single coach had input to. 
 

you could count on one finger the number of those players who would be selected for any of the top six teams. Some might even and use the they were bidding for the players, which is correct however the other clubs walked way. 
 

When the likes of Neglesmann and Enrique say no thanks it give you a good idea what top coaches think of project Chelsea.  
 

if Poch gets 50pts this season, he deserves another season and input to summer recruitment so it can be called his team. Else we will have the same debate next season. 

Almost, the biggest tool is Pochettino 

[Chelsea_Matt]

1 hour ago, Siidi said:

Once players become convinced the manager doesn't  know what he's doing, they perform  worse than they are capable of as individual, hence the new manager bounce that follows. We are at that juncture, I'm afraid  

The new manager bounce is caused by players just playing to their abilities even without a manager. We could do with that right now. 

We could do with a coach right now.

The issue though goes beyond that. We know Todd, Eggy and their “sporting directors” are clowns who need to be out into a sack and beaten with a baseball bat. They’d all deserve it, no matter who got hit. 

Here we have a billion-pound squad full of players who aren’t good enough (£225m on Enzo and Caicedo? They aren’t worth tuppence) with no heart, spirit, leadership, togetherness or fight - unless it’s one of those rare occasions that we win. Our players don’t care a damn about the shirt, club or fans. Just for themselves, their wallets and Instagram. We have ONE truly class player. 

How does even a good coach change that? 
 

@Morgs?  @chara?  @Mark Kelly ? @JaneB ? 👀🤷🏻‍♂️💀😔

[Max Fowler]

54 minutes ago, Siidi said:

And to wade into the "experience" debate, there are aspects of the game that benefit from experience and there are aspects  that benefit from youth. Under Pochettino this young team often looks puffed out by the 60th minute. Can someone explain to me why having a few more older players would make us last longer, or have we already entered the era of reverse biology? 

They weren't tired. They didn't run. Pochettino admitted it after the game.

"Today we didn’t show the capacity, the energy, the hunger that is the minimum to compete in the Premier League. In the defensive phase we conceded too much. That is why I am so upset and disappointed.

'It is about being stronger as a group, stronger to be like a team. For different reasons we are so slow evolving in this area and that was the key today. It is not about finding excuses - we had energy when we were going forward, but when we didn’t have the ball we didn’t show the same energy"

That screams we need leaders to help push the lads to the limit. As does any team.

[Mark Kelly]

1 minute ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

We could do with a coach right now.

The issue though goes beyond that. We know Todd, Eggy and their “sporting directors” are clowns who need to be out into a sack and beaten with a baseball bat. They’d all deserve it, no matter who got hit. 

Here we have a billion-pound squad full of players who aren’t good enough (£225m on Enzo and Caicedo? They aren’t worth tuppence) with no heart, spirit, leadership, togetherness or fight - unless it’s one of those rare occasions that we win. Our players don’t care a damn about the shirt, club or fans. Just for themselves, their wallets and Instagram. We have ONE truly class player. 

How does even a good coach change that? 
 

@Morgs?  @chara?  @Mark Kelly ? @JaneB ? 👀🤷🏻‍♂️💀😔

It's not the players .

The players are no doubt fed up of his lack of preparation , lack of tactical acumen and lack of leadership .

Those that he hasn't trained into the hospital that is .

Another coach and those clearly not good enough players will automatically become good enough once they have someone showing them what needs doing , when and why .

[Chelsea_Matt]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

They weren't tired. They didn't run. Pochettino admitted it after the game.

"Today we didn’t show the capacity, the energy, the hunger that is the minimum to compete in the Premier League. In the defensive phase we conceded too much. That is why I am so upset and disappointed.

'It is about being stronger as a group, stronger to be like a team. For different reasons we are so slow evolving in this area and that was the key today. It is not about finding excuses - we had energy when we were going forward, but when we didn’t have the ball we didn’t show the same energy"

That screams we need leaders to help push the lads to the limit. As does any team.

Great quotes, Max.

I wonder what those “reasons” are? We have to be fair for all Poch’s faults - I think a fair few of these players are entitled brats. 

[ROTG]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

Almost, the biggest tool is Pochettino 

before Winstanley and Stewart got involved in the club and recruitment, the club had amassed 30pts up to match-day 21 in season 22-23 . Since their involvement from match-day 22 the 16 remaining matches that season and the 28 matches this season, total of 44 PL matches the club have won 54 pts and not forgetting being on coach No 3. 

If you are looking for tools it not the coach.

 

on yes - just cooked the first BBQ of the year - get in 😀

Edited March 31 by ROTG

[Max Fowler]

40 minutes ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

Great quotes, Max.

I wonder what those “reasons” are? We have to be fair for all Poch’s faults - I think a fair few of these players are entitled brats. 

In fairness, I think it's hard to tell. Just like I excused the players last season for playing in a completely transitional dressing room of nigh on 40 players, this season I have sympathy for the kids playing in a team devoid of real leadership.

What I fear is that we are squad building purely on data models and failing to take into account the personal qualities that we need. We might calculate Caicedo makes a ton of ball recoveries and runs a lot, but is he a real leader either?

Talented squads won't do anything without some age and experience.

Edited March 31 by Max Fowler

[Mark Kelly]

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

In fairness, I think it's hard to tell. Just like I excused the players last season for playing in a completely transitional dressing room of nigh on 40 players, this season I have sympathy for the kids playing in a team devoid of real leadership.

What I fear is that we are squad building purely on data models and failing to take into account the personal qualities that we need. We might calculate Caicedo makes a ton of ball recoveries and runs a lot, but is he a real leader either?

Talented squads won't do anything without some age and experience.

We have a fair bit of experience in the squad, James when not run into the ground, Chilwell when not run into the ground, Silva when not excluded, Sterling when not being played out of position, you don't have to be old to be a leader of men. 

Christ knows where these leaders we've decided we need are going to spring from, we cant ever deal with Brighton again as nobody has the stomach for a Dunk bid of £100m. 

Leaders on the pitch are great if you have them but who's the leader at Arsenal? Rice? He's only been there five minutes, who's the leader at Liverpool? Trent? Where's the new Stevie Me? 

They're doing better than us as they have some better players but all of them have a better coach who is leasing the side with a philosophy the players are buying into and flourishing under. 

We have a space hopper who's won nothing throughout his career running them into the treatment room with a philosophy of letting them get on with it. 

[Max Fowler]

52 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

We have a fair bit of experience in the squad, James when not run into the ground, Chilwell when not run into the ground, Silva when not excluded, Sterling when not being played out of position, you don't have to be old to be a leader of men. 

Christ knows where these leaders we've decided we need are going to spring from, we cant ever deal with Brighton again as nobody has the stomach for a Dunk bid of £100m. 

Leaders on the pitch are great if you have them but who's the leader at Arsenal? Rice? He's only been there five minutes, who's the leader at Liverpool? Trent? Where's the new Stevie Me? 

They're doing better than us as they have some better players but all of them have a better coach who is leasing the side with a philosophy the players are buying into and flourishing under. 

We have a space hopper who's won nothing throughout his career running them into the treatment room with a philosophy of letting them get on with it. 

Arsenal have a lot of leaders - Saliba, Gabriel, Rice, Zinchenko, Jorginho, Odegaard, Jesus.

Liverpool have Van Dijk, Alisson, Diaz, Endo, Thiago, Robertson, Matip, Salah, and Trent.

I agree that Silva should be playing and Poch isn't getting the best out of Sterling but the idea that Chilwell and James would become our captain and vice captain is a nonsense. They have been so injury prone over the last couple of seasons that it completely revealed how lacking our squad was in leaders.

Edited March 31 by Max Fowler

[Mark Kelly]

1 minute ago, Max Fowler said:

Arsenal have a lot of leaders - Saliba, Gabriel, Rice, Zinchenko, Jorginho, Odegaard, Jesus.

Liverpool have Van Dijk, Alisson, Diaz, Endo, Thiago, Robertson, Matip, Salah, and Trent.

I agree that Silva should be playing and Poch isn't getting the best out of Sterling but the idea that Chilwell and James would become our captain and vice captain is a nonsense. They have been so injury prone over the last couple of seasons that it completely revealed how lacking our squad was in leaders.

Hardly any of those players are leaders what they are is doing what they're told and under the direction of proper coaching whereas we have a space hopper. 

[Siidi]

2 hours ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

We could do with a coach right now.

The issue though goes beyond that. We know Todd, Eggy and their “sporting directors” are clowns who need to be out into a sack and beaten with a baseball bat. They’d all deserve it, no matter who got hit. 

Here we have a billion-pound squad full of players who aren’t good enough (£225m on Enzo and Caicedo? They aren’t worth tuppence) with no heart, spirit, leadership, togetherness or fight - unless it’s one of those rare occasions that we win. Our players don’t care a damn about the shirt, club or fans. Just for themselves, their wallets and Instagram. We have ONE truly class player. 

How does even a good coach change that? 
 

@Morgs?  @chara?  @Mark Kelly ? @JaneB ? 👀🤷🏻‍♂️💀😔

We have seriously overpaid for  some players.including the two you've mentioned  But iif we had a manager to get a tune out of the team, few people would be talking about the price tags of those players.

I remember how all the talks of Abramovich spraying money suddenly dissipated once we started cleaning up the medal tables. Perhaps a message to Todd Boehly ; if you gonna overpay for players, make sure you hire a decent manager. 

[chara]

4 hours ago, Chelsea_Matt said:

We could do with a coach right now.

The issue though goes beyond that. We know Todd, Eggy and their “sporting directors” are clowns who need to be out into a sack and beaten with a baseball bat. They’d all deserve it, no matter who got hit. 

Here we have a billion-pound squad full of players who aren’t good enough (£225m on Enzo and Caicedo? They aren’t worth tuppence) with no heart, spirit, leadership, togetherness or fight - unless it’s one of those rare occasions that we win. Our players don’t care a damn about the shirt, club or fans. Just for themselves, their wallets and Instagram. We have ONE truly class player. 

How does even a good coach change that? 
 

@Morgs?  @chara?  @Mark Kelly ? @JaneB ? 👀🤷🏻‍♂️💀😔

I take it your question to us is your last line.

A good coach utilises the strengths of individual players and works on balancing their strengths against their weaker skills and setting up a side to compliment the varied strengths and minimising the weaknesses across the side.

The concept is not complicated the implementation of it is.

Not quite the same but I have a small ability regarding dog training...it is basically simple but takes a lot of hard work and the recognizing /understanding of different temperaments and abilities, Sound familiar?

Perhaps unfairly I don't believe The Poch is good enough a coach to take a top squad to consistent triumph,,a slightly better AVB but a coach the old JT group would have risen above.

The young squad we have learning their trade are being coached, it appears, as if they were all seasoned pro's understanding the game through years of learning curves,,,as an OG I seem to remember when Danny Blanchflower was at Chelsea...a great player and football mind...the youngsters he had basically gave up because they couldn't understand what he was trying to tell them..The Poch is no Blanchflower ..... so what is he telling them?

Added after thought,,I have seen from playing at different levels and watching many levels that certain players just "click" with each almost immediately,,something a good coach sees at once and works on...anyone convinced The Poch has that sort of "eye"?

(or any real vision?)

Edited March 31 by chara

[chara]

4 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

They weren't tired. They didn't run. Pochettino admitted it after the game.

"Today we didn’t show the capacity, the energy, the hunger that is the minimum to compete in the Premier League. In the defensive phase we conceded too much. That is why I am so upset and disappointed.

'It is about being stronger as a group, stronger to be like a team. For different reasons we are so slow evolving in this area and that was the key today. It is not about finding excuses - we had energy when we were going forward, but when we didn’t have the ball we didn’t show the same energy"

That screams we need leaders to help push the lads to the limit. As does any team.

Sounds to me as if The Poch is blaming the players for his own inability to instill the necessary attitude in HIS squad.

I'm sure I don't have to list coaches/managers over the years across the game who would never have given such a feeble interview because as much as anything else they would not accept that sort of alleged attitude from their teams....

I believe it's called PRIDE.

[xceleryx]

22 hours ago, Original 21 said:

Can’t believe we actually got rid of all our academy central defensive prospects over the last couple of years and ended up with Disasi and Badashiele as their replacements. It’s criminal the way this club has been run into the ground. Chalobah has managed to survive the cull, but will no doubt be sold in the summer, even though he’s a better defender than the two clowns who played today. And I’m not even that much of a fan of his. 

Context matters. 

Players like Tomori were sold because he wasn't better than those we had ahead of him at the time. He was, while talented, at the bottom of the pecking order. And while he's gone on to be pretty decent at AC Milan he's far away from being a solution either if anyone spent time watching him with regularity. Similar applies to Guehi, who again was neither better than those ahead of him at the time of his return, and while also wanting to play regular first team football - which was not a guarantee we could provide. 

The situation we're in right now was entirely unforeseen at the time players like those left. 

In a perfect world we'd still have Rudiger being our defensive leader, that's not how it always works out though unfortunately. 

[xceleryx]

13 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

Precisely why we should have looked to keep a few more of the likes of Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante, Havertz, and/or Mount for a season or two longer. They may have been sellable assets longer term but could have aided the transition and added experience.

The narrative is they wanted to leave and downed tools. The reality is we had no intention of keeping them and should have built the team around them in the short-term. Or, like you said, brought more experience in to replace them. But the owners have no intention of bringing in experienced players.

Keeping players like this was easier said than done. They were all at cross-roads of their Chelsea careers, largely due to either their age, fit, fitness, contract or a combination. 

We'd have had to invest a lot of money from a wage perspective on players who weren't really going to justify it, then face the consequences of being potentially stuck with these contracts for the next few years - equally as detrimental, as we've seen by being stuck with players like Lukaku, Ziyech, Sarr, etc. 

Then you look at the profile of these players, outside of Jorginho there isn't really much genuine leadership on hand. 

We also did buy more senior players initially in Auba, Koulibaly, Sterling, and many still complained about them in some way, shape or form. 

Buying the right player from a profile standpoint is where we've lacked, instead of just focusing on potential or skillset alone. We need to add certain personality traits - like leadership, football IQ, etc into the mix. So it's more than just buying experience or more senior figures per se. 

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, chara said:

I take it your question to us is your last line.

A good coach utilises the strengths of individual players and works on balancing their strengths against their weaker skills and setting up a side to compliment the varied strengths and minimising the weaknesses across the side.

The concept is not complicated the implementation of it is.

Not quite the same but I have a small ability regarding dog training...it is basically simple but takes a lot of hard work and the recognizing /understanding of different temperaments and abilities, Sound familiar?

Perhaps unfairly I don't believe The Poch is good enough a coach to take a top squad to consistent triumph,,a slightly better AVB but a coach the old JT group would have risen above.

The young squad we have learning their trade are being coached, it appears, as if they were all seasoned pro's understanding the game through years of learning curves,,,as an OG I seem to remember when Danny Blanchflower was at Chelsea...a great player and football mind...the youngsters he had basically gave up because they couldn't understand what he was trying to tell them..The Poch is no Blanchflower ..... so what is he telling them?

Added after thought,,I have seen from playing at different levels and watching many levels that certain players just "click" with each almost immediately,,something a good coach sees at once and works on...anyone convinced The Poch has that sort of "eye"?

(or any real vision?)

Adding to this Chara, and you'll probably understand this yourself from your own experience, but it's also not always easy as a player to go out there and implement the instructions of a coach. Even if you understand what's being asked, actually applying that in match conditions isn't necessarily straight forward either. 

There's going to be plenty of occasions where it just doesn't happen, be that because the opposition aren't allowing it, fighting for momentum, your players are off their game, don't have the personality, the skillset, the mentality, etc. It's such a complex and layered concept and this no doubt goes well over the head of most average sports fans, especially those who've never really played a sport in competitive environments. 

We look better coached this season than we did last season IMO. While I don't believe Poch is the man to progress us into a trophy winning team or even a title challenger longer term, for me he's still a suitable stepping stone option for where we are right now. But again, we're also an incomplete side that's dealing with a few problems that sit on the extreme end of the scales. Youngest side in the league, second shortest side on average, laundry list of injuries, a freshly constructed group of players, etc. Not the most conventional of environments and one I imagine many managers would also have their struggles handling. 

[chara]

@xceleryx...agree generally and appreciate that pre game instruction don't automatically work but there appears to be no plan B... at many levels I have seen experienced players alter set ups if only by changing one players role....we all understand the limitations of the squad and the reasons but I will never be convinced that The Poch is anything more than a journey man coach and a stop gap.

Much talk of off season transfers in but no point in bringing in more of the same but who will be available and worth a punt to shore up the side?

Always appreciate another's view of any of my posts.

[xceleryx]

9 minutes ago, chara said:

@xceleryx...agree generally and appreciate that pre game instruction don't automatically work but there appears to be no plan B... at many levels I have seen experienced players alter set ups if only by changing one players role....we all understand the limitations of the squad and the reasons but I will never be convinced that The Poch is anything more than a journey man coach and a stop gap.

Much talk of off season transfers in but no point in bringing in more of the same but who will be available and worth a punt to shore up the side?

Always appreciate another's view of any of my posts.

A Plan B can also be dictated by what a manager has available to them. On occasions we have seen changes made by Poch that veer away from our initial setup or approach, however we've also seen him stick with what he's got. 

When we struggle to get our best eleven out on the pitch and are having to constantly adjust our line up's, sometimes keeping things as simple as possible is the most beneficial even if it is a bit static. 

Again, I don't think Poch is the main to elevate us into title challengers or competing in Europe again however.

[Siidi]

12 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

They weren't tired. They didn't run. Pochettino admitted it after the game.

"Today we didn’t show the capacity, the energy, the hunger that is the minimum to compete in the Premier League. In the defensive phase we conceded too much. That is why I am so upset and disappointed.

'It is about being stronger as a group, stronger to be like a team. For different reasons we are so slow evolving in this area and that was the key today. It is not about finding excuses - we had energy when we were going forward, but when we didn’t have the ball we didn’t show the same energy"

That screams we need leaders to help push the lads to the limit. As does any team.

I am surprised he said "We".  He might as well have said, "I am Mauricio Pochettino, reporting from West London. I have just watched this team of young players who can't run after 60 min"

The problem of us limping to the finishing line has been there from the start. The manager has done nothing about it, just like our far post defending, our inability to break down any team, our game management, and more. We need a leader and it's called a coach.

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Siidi said:

I am surprised he said "We".  He might as well have said, "I am Mauricio Pochettino, reporting from West London. I have just watched this team of young players who can't run after 60 min"

The problem of us limping to the finishing line has been there from the start. The manager has done nothing about it, just like our far post defending, our inability to break down any team, our game management, and more. We need a leader and it's called a coach.

Oh, he’s (the coach) definitely getting his excuses in now, for when he gets sacked.

Effectively he’s calling the players lazy and stupid.

He’s been, not so subtly blaming others for a little while now - no wonder the reports are starting to emanate out that the players don’t want him around for next season.