Chelsea 2 Burnley 2

[kev61]

25 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I actually don’t think the  individual player recruitment has been as bad as it seems. Hear me out…

For a start I think we have to acknowledge that Petrovic, Gusto and Jackson are very good signings and still young with a lot of time to improve and get even better. Gusto especially is a fantastic find. Caicedo is a very good player and I do think we’ll see that more and more if the team starts to gel and are coached properly. 

Secondly and my main point around recruitment is that if you signed the players we have (for the most part) and put them as individuals into established teams with experienced players, they would look so so much better than they do when they have all been thrown together to try and create an almost brand new side. They would also all have improved over the last 12/18 months, not just technically but in their understanding of the game, this league and how to manage matches. We still look so incredibly naive as a team.

I guess what I’m saying is that for most of the players we’ve signed in the last 18 months, you can understand why they were scouted and deemed good signings, but the issue is more the overall approach (or lack of) to bringing in SO MANY young and unproven players in and expecting them to not just gel instantly, but to also be the basis of a brand new side, as that is very much what they are.

The biggest problem we have because of this is that the foundations of this new side are weak, mentally fragile and used to losing, because of how they have been assembled (and not coached properly). This is why rebuilds are so hard, take time and cannot be rushed.

The next transfer window HAS to be about bringing in the right characters, the right leaders who have experience and can be the men that our players turn to for advice and ensure that standards don’t slip on and off the pitch. I actually think this is more important than signing a top quality striker, because until we sort out the squad dynamics and get some real leaders in there, this team does not progress and at best it will remain at its current level.

I’m happy to accept we’re not in Europe next season and maybe even the season after that, as long as we can see progress and a Chelsea identity, but since the new owners have come in, no progress has been made at all. We have 1 more point this season than we did at this stage last season. If we didn’t have Palmer, we’d likely be worse off.

The creation of a top club takes a top manager - a team around him must be savvy and investment big 

The problem we have is we fail at the first hurdle  

[Max Fowler]

27 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I actually don’t think the  individual player recruitment has been as bad as it seems. Hear me out…

For a start I think we have to acknowledge that Petrovic, Gusto and Jackson are very good signings and still young with a lot of time to improve and get even better. Gusto especially is a fantastic find. Caicedo is a very good player and I do think we’ll see that more and more if the team starts to gel and are coached properly. 

Secondly and my main point around recruitment is that if you signed the players we have (for the most part) and put them as individuals into established teams with experienced players, they would look so so much better than they do when they have all been thrown together to try and create an almost brand new side. They would also all have improved over the last 12/18 months, not just technically but in their understanding of the game, this league and how to manage matches. We still look so incredibly naive as a team.

I guess what I’m saying is that for most of the players we’ve signed in the last 18 months, you can understand why they were scouted and deemed good signings, but the issue is more the overall approach (or lack of) to bringing in SO MANY young and unproven players in and expecting them to not just gel instantly, but to also be the basis of a brand new side, as that is very much what they are.

The biggest problem we have because of this is that the foundations of this new side are weak, mentally fragile and used to losing, because of how they have been assembled (and not coached properly). This is why rebuilds are so hard, take time and cannot be rushed.

The next transfer window HAS to be about bringing in the right characters, the right leaders who have experience and can be the men that our players turn to for advice and ensure that standards don’t slip on and off the pitch. I actually think this is more important than signing a top quality striker, because until we sort out the squad dynamics and get some real leaders in there, this team does not progress and at best it will remain at its current level.

I’m happy to accept we’re not in Europe next season and maybe even the season after that, as long as we can see progress and a Chelsea identity, but since the new owners have come in, no progress has been made at all. We have 1 more point this season than we did at this stage last season. If we didn’t have Palmer, we’d likely be worse off.

They're not going to change the policy, though. And you're being kind on the signings. Out of the 1 billion we've spent, only the 60 or 70 million for Gusto and Palmer looks like money well spent.

Many of the players we have signed would look totally different in a more sensible setup, and with a more elite manager, but we have also criminally overpaid for many players arguably including one of my favourites - Caicedo. 

It's far more likely that we lose leaders this summer in Thiago, Connor and perhaps Reece than gain them. Rumours are the owners want two elite U23 talents for every position.

[My Blood Is Blue]

19 minutes ago, kev61 said:

The creation of a top club takes a top manager - a team around him must be savvy and investment big 

The problem we have is we fail at the first hurdle  

I don’t disagree with that at all, the manager needs to go, but I think the first hurdle nowadays is actually building the squad… get that wrong and no manager stands a chance.

I’m Poch out, but I think the next manager can only take us so far. We don’t have any generals in this squad, we don’t have any players the manager can look to to organise the team on the pitch, to ensure standards are met etc.

If Mudryk or Jackson have a bad game, who can they turn to in the squad than can advise them based on years of experience? We have Sterling, that is it.

The owners and scouts have completely overlooked experience which is a massive error and I think they’ve completely missed the bigger picture and understood the need to build a squad. They’ve just signed a bunch of young individuals who on paper have a lot of potential. Rarely does anyone reach that potential without guidance and experience around them.

[boratsbrother]

5 hours ago, kev61 said:

I wonder has it ever entered your head that the biggest problem we have at the moment is Poch.

I agree that Poch is part of the problem  and not entirely to blame but the buck stops with him.The guy is(to put it mildly)   a failure 

People say we can't afford to sack him,,..we can't afford not to sack him in the grand scheme of things!

Imho it's fair to point the finger at Poch if his tactics are wrong. If the players are not trying their best etc.

What I'm not going to do is blame him for not being able to play a settled defence all season. Not blame him for Enzo being far too slow for this league. Not blame him for our two central defenders not being close to good enough. Not blame him for the kind of individual clangers which have cost us so many goals and points this season, with two more from Petrovich and Sterling missing a sitter, which turned a 3-1 scoreline into a 2-2 .  That is down to the players not doing their jobs properly, not the manager not doing his job well enough!

I'll say it again for the zillionth time. We never give any managers, not just Poch,  a proper amount of time to sort problems out. Never!

We haven't been a serious force in the league for 7 years now, but we keep wanting to do the same thing over and over again when we can clearly see it's not working. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Max Fowler]

 

 

[Mark Kelly]

4 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

I don’t disagree with that at all, the manager needs to go, but I think the first hurdle nowadays is actually building the squad… get that wrong and no manager stands a chance.

I’m Poch out, but I think the next manager can only take us so far. We don’t have any generals in this squad, we don’t have any players the manager can look to to organise the team on the pitch, to ensure standards are met etc.

If Mudryk or Jackson have a bad game, who can they turn to in the squad than can advise them based on years of experience? We have Sterling, that is it.

The owners and favours have completely overlooked experience which is a massive error and I think they’ve completely missed the bigger picture and understood the need to build a squad. They’ve just signed a bunch of young individuals who on paper have a lot of potential. Rarely does anyone reach that potential without guidance and experience around them.

And to compound it all they've handed this squad to a man who thinks coaching is making them run 700 miles a week and nothing , literally nothing else.

[My Blood Is Blue]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

They're not going to change the policy, though. And you're being kind on the signings. Out of the 1 billion we've spent, only the 60 or 70 million for Gusto and Palmer looks like money well spent.

Many of the players we have signed would look totally different in a more sensible setup, and with a more elite manager, but we have also criminally overpaid for many players arguably including one of my favourites - Caicedo. 

It's far more likely that we lose leaders this summer in Thiago, Connor and perhaps Reece than gain them. Rumours are the owners want two elite U23 talents for every position.

We have overpaid for a lot, yes, some of that was hard to avoid given the mess the British government left us in, but some of it is our own stupidity.

I don’t think I’m being kind on the signings, they can’t control the price tags, but what i’m saying is that  the individuals aren’t as bad as they sometimes seem, it’s the team they’ve been asked to come in and create that’s the issue. We’re asking players like Jackson, Gallagher, Palmer, Mudryk, Enzo and Colwill to be the basis for this new side we’ve supposedly building, when in reality all those players should be young players complimenting an established squad as they try to break into the first team (maybe not Enzo, but he still doesnt have enough experience).

[Max Fowler]

6 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

We have overpaid for a lot, yes, some of that was hard to avoid given the mess the British government left us in, but some of it is our own stupidity.

I don’t think I’m being kind on the signings, they can’t control the price tags, but what i’m saying is that  the individuals aren’t as bad as they sometimes seem, it’s the team they’ve been asked to come in and create that’s the issue. We’re asking players like Jackson, Gallagher, Palmer, Mudryk, Enzo and Colwill to be the basis for this new side we’ve supposedly building, when in reality all those players should be young players complimenting an established squad as they try to break into the first team (maybe not Enzo, but he still doesnt have enough experience).

Precisely why we should have looked to keep a few more of the likes of Jorginho, Kovacic, Kante, Havertz, and/or Mount for a season or two longer. They may have been sellable assets longer term but could have aided the transition and added experience.

The narrative is they wanted to leave and downed tools. The reality is we had no intention of keeping them and should have built the team around them in the short-term. Or, like you said, brought more experience in to replace them. But the owners have no intention of bringing in experienced players.

[east lower]

I think we were slightly better when it was 11 v 11. 

The coach worked his anti-magic at half-time and as usual against a packed midfield come defence, we looked pretty clueless. 

Gallagher was appalling yesterday, for the praise that has been put his way this season has influence has been waning. Maybe he's feeling the strain of doing 2 people's running?

Odobert had Gusto on toast in the first half, couldn't stop him - that's where good coaching helps an already talented player. Nothing to do with cover, just the one v one's 

[east lower]

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

 

 

Doing the owner's briefings again Mr Law?

[kev61]

11 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Imho it's fair to point the finger at Poch if his tactics are wrong. If the players are not trying their best etc.

What I'm not going to do is blame him for not being able to play a settled defence all season. Not blame him for Enzo being far too slow for this league. Not blame him for our two central defenders not being close to good enough. Not blame him for the kind of individual clangers which have cost us so many goals and points this season, with two more from Petrovich and Sterling missing a sitter, which turned a 3-1 scoreline into a 2-2 .  That is down to the players not doing their jobs properly, not the manager not doing his job well enough!

I'll say it again for the zillionth time. We never give any managers, not just Poch,  a proper amount of time to sort problems out. Never!

We haven't been a serious force in the league for 7 years now, but we keep wanting to do the same thing over and over again when we can clearly see it's not working. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can talk all you will  about why Poch is not doing well.The reality is he is a problem.

Some people will see it and some won't and I apologize if that sounds arrogant.

[ROTG]

20 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

We haven't been a serious force in the league for 7 years

We were a serious squad, only the PL eluded the team, hence the quality of coaches the club could attract. 
 

Since the new philosophy taken by the owners and the removal of TT, Poch is the highest level of coach wanting to take on the squad. As proven last summer when top coaches said thanks but no thanks to the project. 
 

As shown by the league position and lack upward trending, the current philosophy is flawed and will probably be kept afloat for another season by selling more HG to balance the books

[ROTG]

14 minutes ago, kev61 said:

You can talk all you will  about why Poch is not doing well.The reality is he is a problem.

Some people will see it and some won't and I apologize if that sounds arrogant.

The bag of dolly mixtures provided Poch is  the problem. 
 

Maybe we will have to wait until the summer to see how many top team come sniffing for any of the clubs, players recruited in the past couple of transfer windows. 

 

[blueboy1905]

17 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I'm just clinging on to the forlorn hope that we get rid of Pochettino 2 seconds after the final whistle of this season and get in a football coach, any would do, why the board thought we could do without one for an entire season is beyond me. 

You're talking about a board that thought it would be a good idea to start the season with a half crippled striker in Broja and a low budget version of Salomon Kalou up front as striker options. They are capable of anything!

[Ham]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

They're not going to change the policy, though. And you're being kind on the signings. Out of the 1 billion we've spent, only the 60 or 70 million for Gusto and Palmer looks like money well spent.

Many of the players we have signed would look totally different in a more sensible setup, and with a more elite manager, but we have also criminally overpaid for many players arguably including one of my favourites - Caicedo. 

It's far more likely that we lose leaders this summer in Thiago, Connor and perhaps Reece than gain them. Rumours are the owners want two elite U23 talents for every position.

I've evidenced before that the first team squad have actually benefited this season from just under £400m worth of player purchases since TBSD took over. 

Forget you ever heard the "£1bn team" nonsense. 

[east lower]

3 minutes ago, Ham said:

I've evidenced before that the first team squad have actually benefited this season from just under £400m worth of player purchases since TBSD took over. 

Forget you ever heard the "£1bn team" nonsense. 

Well the god knows how many hundreds of millions of pounds worth of players and coach gave the freedom of the pitch to Burnley yesterday. 

You can put yourself (not directed personally @Ham) through the misery of watching the game if you feel the need to see if what I say here is correct, but we gave the space to play their passes - wouldn't press them and you could see what that was going to lead to.  

I despair at the ineptitude of this coach and the weakness of some of the players. They know he's a dud and won't break ranks.  

[Ham]

12 minutes ago, east lower said:

Well the god knows how many hundreds of millions of pounds worth of players and coach gave the freedom of the pitch to Burnley yesterday. 

You can put yourself (not directed personally @Ham) through the misery of watching the game if you feel the need to see if what I say here is correct, but we gave the space to play their passes - wouldn't press them and you could see what that was going to lead to.  

I despair at the ineptitude of this coach and the weakness of some of the players. They know he's a dud and won't break ranks.  

Oh don't get me wrong. When we were 1-0 up v 10 men I said to my son "We're capable of messing this up".

We were too casual and confident in possession when they were 9 at the back and as soon as we went ahead again we weren't ready for them coming out at us. 

Seems you only have to spank the ball towards our penalty spot and we're in trouble. 

[kev61]

I think we lost the plot when Rudiger and Christensen left the arena.The players  we brought in are quite frankly an expensive joke 

[kev61]

56 minutes ago, Ham said:

Oh don't get me wrong. When we were 1-0 up v 10 men I said to my son "We're capable of messing this up"

That is the theme in the way we play.Is that the players? Or is it a manager that doesn't know his arse from his elbow?

[Sciatika]

All problems involving people are always multivariate. 

[kev61]

27 minutes ago, Sciatika said:

All problems involving people are always multivariate. 

You don't say - i'll remember that👍

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, Ham said:

Oh don't get me wrong. When we were 1-0 up v 10 men I said to my son "We're capable of messing this up".

We were too casual and confident in possession when they were 9 at the back and as soon as we went ahead again we weren't ready for them coming out at us. 

Seems you only have to spank the ball towards our penalty spot and we're in trouble. 

Also they had a plan B game plan of bringing on taller persons than the Knotty Ash team provided to poch, and played slightly more direct if the highlights are anything to go by.  
 

Not sure how a £1m set piece coach is going to improve a team made up of players from Knotty Ash. 

[chara]

OK..morning after...nothing has changed,,,everyone understands the problems with basically the only differences being an emphasis by individuals on different parts of the issues but with the full understanding across the spectrum.

First and foremost,,as ever HMG...everything follows from there,at a time of "adjustment" which was in the balance suddenly the whole structure of Chelsea as we knew it collapsed.

For all the justified and well laid out views regarding bringing in such a mixture of young inexperienced players I keep wondering who was realistically available to bolster that group?

It has been pointed out that in a different set up most of the newcomers would not look out of place and the worth of the signing of Gusto and Palmer ( first season as an EPL regular,,amazing) obvious to all...not every thing is bad...

Mid table coach,,probably peaked taking Spuds to the Champions Final (somehow) and only plus I can give him is the players looked fitter earlier in the season than last season. Part of the "average" never gonna be anything but mid level group making up the bulk of the EPL....I just can't see anyone in that group who would really make a difference..look at Howe....supposedly was going to take Newcastle to the stars and here they are vying with Chelsea for 10/11 th place!

Todd and Co appointed "football people" who have proved to be the lower case value I gave them.

Just venting a little...I have followed Chelsea through thick and thin but this version seems not worthy of true Football Fan loyalty...I think it was @east lower who mentioned how bemused and ultimately stunned the hardy match going loyalists were. Says it all.

Edited March 31 by chara

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, east lower said:

I despair at the ineptitude of this coach and the weakness of some of the players. They know he's a dud and won't break ranks.  

The coach is only as good as the tools given to him. 
 

regardless of how @Ham tries to offset sales, the bottom line is the club spent 

Jan-23 window £330m, Summer -23 window £ 465m Total £795m on players which not a single coach had input to. 
 

you could count on one finger the number of those players who would be selected for any of the top six teams. Some might even and use the they were bidding for the players, which is correct however the other clubs walked way. 
 

When the likes of Neglesmann and Enrique say no thanks it give you a good idea what top coaches think of project Chelsea.  
 

if Poch gets 50pts this season, he deserves another season and input to summer recruitment so it can be called his team. Else we will have the same debate next season. 

[ROTG]

33 minutes ago, chara said:

keep wondering who was realistically available to bolster that group?

Obviously not the three sold last season by the club and playing in the top of the shop shootout currently being played in Manchester. 

Edited March 31 by ROTG