Chelsea 2 Burnley 2

[Mark Kelly]

32 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

Honestly in the cases of Badiashille and Disasi I can't really see how Poch can be blamed for their sheer amount of individual errors and incredibly limited ball distribution. Yes we are very open but to my eye they just don't cut it. It's the same as when one of our strikers misses a sitter or fluff a pass. Sure the manager feeds into their confidence but neither look like real leaders to me.

I don't think we need to get hung up on "leaders" per se , both those players are decent players , neither of them are as good as Silva or Colwill at progressing the ball but for where we are and I dare say where we see ourselves in the next couple of years .

However , individual mistakes as annoying as they are are exacerbated by the clueless coaching in my opinion , there appears to be no rhyme or reason to what and how we do anything , no organisation , compare that to Arsenal who are like a well oiled machine where everyone has a picture in their head of where their teammates should be . 

I am absolutely confident that if we sold either or to Arsenal or City or Newcastle or Villa or Wolves or Bournemouth or Everton they'd be absolutely fine as all of those sides have a coach who knows what they are about . 

[Max Fowler]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

I don't think we need to get hung up on "leaders" per se , both those players are decent players , neither of them are as good as Silva or Colwill at progressing the ball but for where we are and I dare say where we see ourselves in the next couple of years .

However , individual mistakes as annoying as they are are exacerbated by the clueless coaching in my opinion , there appears to be no rhyme or reason to what and how we do anything , no organisation , compare that to Arsenal who are like a well oiled machine where everyone has a picture in their head of where their teammates should be . 

I am absolutely confident that if we sold either or to Arsenal or City or Newcastle or Villa or Wolves or Bournemouth or Everton they'd be absolutely fine as all of those sides have a coach who knows what they are about . 

The question is though why has Gusto been so excellent for us and Disasi and Badiashille so poor?

Badiashille was decent before Poch came in but nothing on what Gusto is achieving.

Yes Poch's system suits full-backs but we are seeing players like Gusto and Palmer show their quality consistently and others not.

I do think with a new manager we could easily play and defend better, but I also don't think Disasi or Badiashille are top level defenders regardless of Poch.

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Max Fowler said:

The question is though why has Gusto been so excellent for us and Disasi and Badiashille so poor?

Badiashille was decent before Poch came in but nothing on what Gusto is achieving.

Yes Poch's system suits full-backs but we are seeing players like Gusto and Palmer show their quality consistently and others not.

I do think with a new manager we could easily play and defend better, but I also don't think Disasi or Badiashille are top level defenders regardless of Poch.

I think there's an element of personal responsibility involved as well and as I said previously the silly errors are annoying  but as regards Gusto and Palmer, Gusto has a strictly defined role , every full back in the league goes up and down the line , it's quite a rigid role whereas as a centre half himself  you'd expect Pochettino would be able to bring his vast knowledge of being bypassed like a statue by Michael Owen to the fore and help Disasi and Badiashille ( who we all thought was one of the highlights of Potterball)  organise themselves better , but we're not seeing it , with regards to Palmer given time i'm certain that Poch will knock all the good stuff that Pep knocked in out of him again . 

[Max Fowler]

5 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

I think there's an element of personal responsibility involved as well and as I said previously the silly errors are annoying  but as regards Gusto and Palmer, Gusto has a strictly defined role , every full back in the league goes up and down the line , it's quite a rigid role whereas as a centre half himself  you'd expect Pochettino would be able to bring his vast knowledge of being bypassed like a statue by Michael Owen to the fore and help Disasi and Badiashille ( who we all thought was one of the highlights of Potterball)  organise themselves better , but we're not seeing it , with regards to Palmer given time i'm certain that Poch will knock all the good stuff that Pep knocked in out of him again . 

That doesn't explain why Gusto has been so much better than our left-backs this season, including Chilwell. Obviously some coaches vibe with players more than others but I do think there is a reality that Badiashille and Disasi just aren't very good.

Perhaps Badiashille would look better under a more defensive coach than Poch or if we played 5 at the back again. The point is there is no joined up thinking as we are not interested in buying players who suit the manager's style of play - rather get a manager in who can somehow magically develop all our young players without regard to whether or not they actually suit his favoured system.

[Mark Kelly]

9 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

That doesn't explain why Gusto has been so much better than our left-backs this season, including Chilwell. Obviously some coaches vibe with players more than others but I do think there is a reality that Badiashille and Disasi just aren't very good.

Perhaps Badiashille would look better under a more defensive coach than Poch or if we played 5 at the back again. The point is there is no joined up thinking as we are not interested in buying players who suit the manager's style of play - rather get a manager in who can somehow magically develop all our young players without regard to whether or not they actually suit his favoured system.

He's been here nine months, what's his favoured system then?

Is it eleven players with no discernible connection to each other ?

If it is he's acing it. 

 

[Max Fowler]

7 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

He's been here nine months, what's his favoured system then?

Is it eleven players with no discernible connection to each other ?

If it is he's acing it. 

He clearly favours an open 4-4-2 formation where the game is open and attacking.

[Mark Kelly]

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

He clearly favours an open 4-4-2 formation where the game is open and attacking.

We don't see that very often if at all do we ?

[asvaberg]

6 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

We don't see that very often if at all do we ?

'cause he doesn't have a gameplan. Players don't  know where and how to play.  It's really a greek tragicomedy

Edited April 2 by asvaberg

[martin1905]

17 hours ago, Max Fowler said:

He clearly favours an open 4-4-2 formation where the game is open and attacking.

Imagine playing a 442 with Enzo as one of the two central midfielders, Would have been like playing Jorginho or Cesc in a 442, both would have been utterly useless.

And playing two strikers when you don't have one that's good enough.

I didn't think my opinion of the manager could get any lower........

 

 

Edited April 3 by martin1905

[Max Fowler]

10 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Imagine playing a 442 with Enzo as one of the two central midfielders, Would have been like playing Jorginho or Cesc in a 442, both would have been utterly useless.

And playing two strikers when you don't have one that's good enough.

I didn't think my opinion of the manager could get any lower........

 

 

The question is though Martin, why are we not getting players that suit the manger, or vice versa?

[martin1905]

10 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

The question is though Martin, why are we not getting players that suit the manger, or vice versa?

I think we have a group of players that would suit any half competent manager.

Only one person on this forum prediction us finishing outside the top 6 this season

[Max Fowler]

17 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I think we have a group of players that would suit any half competent manager.

Only one person on this forum prediction us finishing outside the top 6 this season

I think unfortunately the players have proved to have more weaknesses than we imagined too and the overall profile of the squad has proved to be far too imbalanced.

[martin1905]

1 hour ago, Max Fowler said:

I think unfortunately the players have proved to have more weaknesses than we imagined too and the overall profile of the squad has proved to be far too imbalanced.

Or, like literally everyone thought at the start of the season the players are good enough and perhaps the manger is not.

It's pretty evident by watching our matches that the manger is inept, the players may not be good enough but when I look back at Caicedo last season at Brighton,  Enzo at the world Cup or his first six months here I don't think it's unfair to assume that they are much, much better than they have been this season and have been woefully let down by the manager.

I really struggle to keep having this sort of conversation on here. We are the epitome of a club that should be able to tell. Lamaprd-Tuchel-Potter, with more or less the same players. One elite manager the other two useless. The difference in results and performances couldn't be any different. 

We've since gone from one inept coach to another and seeing the same old, same old. It should be so obvious for literally every single Chelsea fan to see the problem. Yes the squad is unbalanced,  yes we don't have enough experience but that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't be watching a well drilled, well organised team that can do the absolute basics in football, like defend a set piece. I've said previously I've been involed with grass routes football for the past 10 years and see better organised under 12 teams than us. It's absolutely shocking.

 The board aren't going to sack themselves and let's face it, the players aren't going anywhere, we'd lose an absolute fortune so we are stuck with them, whatever people think so why not make a change in the summer and see what happens. The alternative,  keeping Poch will guarantee the same results. 

Is there one, single reason NOT to sack him in the summer? Is there literally anyone left that wants him to stay beyond this season?

Watching Caicedo and Enzo, who on paper are the perfect pivot, be shadows of the players they both were last sasom, seeing the opposition run through them  like their not there because Gallagher is running around like a headless chicken far too high up the pitch and our two full backs don't come inside to help is embarrassing. It's not even school boy stuff. It's complete and utter ineptitude. 

The only excuse the manager has is the injuries. A fully fit Fofana, James, Lavia, Nkunku would make a huge difference and they will be like having 4 top quality, new signings next season. If we had been seeing signs of anything then the manager xpuld be given some leeway. 3 of your best players, and one who is different to anything else we have in midfield, the loss of such key players, for pretty much an entire season would have me giving any other manager the benefit of doubt but not a manager that thinks its a good idea to play 'an open 442 formation where the game is open and attacking' with these players.

[Max Fowler]

31 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

Or, like literally everyone thought at the start of the season the players are good enough and perhaps the manger is not.

It's pretty evident by watching our matches that the manger is inept, the players may not be good enough but when I look back at Caicedo last season at Brighton,  Enzo at the world Cup or his first six months here I don't think it's unfair to assume that they are much, much better than they have been this season and have been woefully let down by the manager.

I really struggle to keep having this sort of conversation on here. We are the epitome of a club that should be able to tell. Lamaprd-Tuchel-Potter, with more or less the same players. One elite manager the other two useless. The difference in results and performances couldn't be any different. 

We've since gone from one inept coach to another and seeing the same old, same old. It should be so obvious for literally every single Chelsea fan to see the problem. Yes the squad is unbalanced,  yes we don't have enough experience but that doesn't mean to say we shouldn't be watching a well drilled, well organised team that can do the absolute basics in football, like defend a set piece. I've said previously I've been involed with grass routes football for the past 10 years and see better organised under 12 teams than us. It's absolutely shocking.

 The board aren't going to sack themselves and let's face it, the players aren't going anywhere, we'd lose an absolute fortune so we are stuck with them, whatever people think so why not make a change in the summer and see what happens. The alternative,  keeping Poch will guarantee the same results. 

Is there one, single reason NOT to sack him in the summer? Is there literally anyone left that wants him to stay beyond this season?

Watching Caicedo and Enzo, who on paper are the perfect pivot, be shadows of the players they both were last sasom, seeing the opposition run through them  like their not there because Gallagher is running around like a headless chicken far too high up the pitch and our two full backs don't come inside to help is embarrassing. It's not even school boy stuff. It's complete and utter ineptitude. 

The only excuse the manager has is the injuries. A fully fit Fofana, James, Lavia, Nkunku would make a huge difference and they will be like having 4 top quality, new signings next season. If we had been seeing signs of anything then the manager xpuld be given some leeway. 3 of your best players, and one who is different to anything else we have in midfield, the loss of such key players, for pretty much an entire season would have me giving any other manager the benefit of doubt but not a manager that thinks its a good idea to play 'an open 442 formation where the game is open and attacking' with these players.

The thing is Martin, I am not pro the manager - I just think it's more complicated than you make out. Enzo was not great for us last season. 

Our problem last season was scoring goals. Our problem this season is conceding.

I would have sacked Poch 5 times over but I still think our squad needs a lot of work. It doesn't really matter what we thought pre season. We were all wooed by big money signings and the reality is that the squad as well have Poch have turned out to be far weaker than expected.

[martin1905]

2 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

The thing is Martin, I am not pro the manager - I just think it's more complicated than you make out. Enzo was not great for us last season. 

Our problem last season was scoring goals. Our problem this season is conceding.

I would have sacked Poch 5 times over but I still think our squad needs a lot of work. It doesn't really matter what we thought pre season. We were all wooed by big money signings and the reality is that the squad as well have Poch have turned out to be far weaker than expected.

I won't judge these players under this manager, simple at that. It's not that far out there to suggest, judging what we see on match day's,  the training ot coaching is pretty poor. We have seen players over the last few years play at completely different levels under different managers, most slated Rudiger on a weekly basis. Was pretty much only me and Droy that backed him on here. He's one of the very best in the world yet was a scapegoat under Frank.

One thing I don't believe is that our squad is weaker than United,  West Ham, Newcastle, Brighton,  Wolves or Bournemouth who all currently sit above us in the league. It's not about us getting wooed by big  money signings or getting it slightly wrong. We are 12th in the league, and yes have some games in hand but have been there or there abouts all season and that is nowhere near good enough.

[Max Fowler]

22 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

We have seen players over the last few years play at completely different levels under different managers, most slated Rudiger on a weekly basis. Was pretty much only me and Droy that backed him on here. He's one of the very best in the world yet was a scapegoat under Frank.

One thing I don't believe is that our squad is weaker than United,  West Ham, Newcastle, Brighton,  Wolves or Bournemouth who all currently sit above us in the league. It's not about us getting wooed by big  money signings or getting it slightly wrong. We are 12th in the league, and yes have some games in hand but have been there or there abouts all season and that is nowhere near good enough.

Can't disagree with any of that Martin

[Rob B]

31 minutes ago, martin1905 said:

I won't judge these players under this manager, simple at that. It's not that far out there to suggest, judging what we see on match day's,  the training ot coaching is pretty poor. We have seen players over the last few years play at completely different levels under different managers, most slated Rudiger on a weekly basis. Was pretty much only me and Droy that backed him on here. He's one of the very best in the world yet was a scapegoat under Frank.

One thing I don't believe is that our squad is weaker than United,  West Ham, Newcastle, Brighton,  Wolves or Bournemouth who all currently sit above us in the league. It's not about us getting wooed by big  money signings or getting it slightly wrong. We are 12th in the league, and yes have some games in hand but have been there or there abouts all season and that is nowhere near good enough.

Agree with most of this post, but I don't think it's entirely on the manager.  

I absolutely think that a different (better) manager could achieve more with these players in the same way you reference that Tuchel did taking over from Frank, but I think we have major gaps in our squad composition - namely leadership, experience, height, physicality etc. 

Individually, most of our players are very good, potentially world class even, but collectively they're a real problem and it would be the first thing a world class manager like Tuchel, Jose or Conte would call out.   Take our full backs as a fairly trivial but real example - we had Gusto and Cucurella in the last game who are like 5'10 and 5'8, yet the teams above us have Ben White, Gvardiol, Udogie, Dan Burns, Joe Gomez, Akanji who are all monsters.  And we wonder why we are conceding from set plays? 

You can't get away with not matching the physicality of teams anymore, the standard is too high.

[boratsbrother]

Some serious revisionism going on here!

Rudi's performances under Lampard were absolutely appalling! So bad that people on here never wanted to see him kick a ball for is again. Lampard had no choice but to drop him! Rudi was and is a quality player but he very clearly carried  his personal issues with Lamps onto the pitch which was grossly unprofessional!

People aslo forgetting that the team was playing some truly dreadful football in TT's second season. Football that was every bit as bad as we what we saw from Potter and Poch, but half as entertaining as some of the football we have seen this season. 

Imho, TT is a hugely overrated manager and  well below the elite level ones like Pep, Klopp and the others of the last 25 years.

 

 

[boratsbrother]

31 minutes ago, Rob B said:

Agree with most of this post, but I don't think it's entirely on the manager.  

I absolutely think that a different (better) manager could achieve more with these players in the same way you reference that Tuchel did taking over from Frank, but I think we have major gaps in our squad composition - namely leadership, experience, height, physicality etc. 

Individually, most of our players are very good, potentially world class even, but collectively they're a real problem and it would be the first thing a world class manager like Tuchel, Jose or Conte would call out.   Take our full backs as a fairly trivial but real example - we had Gusto and Cucurella in the last game who are like 5'10 and 5'8, yet the teams above us have Ben White, Gvardiol, Udogie, Dan Burns, Joe Gomez, Akanji who are all monsters.  And we wonder why we are conceding from set plays? 

You can't get away with not matching the physicality of teams anymore, the standard is too high.

Ashley Cole was 5ft 9, which is proof that the height of a FB is not an issue! Height of CB's is most definitely an issue! 

[Rob B]

16 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Ashley Cole was 5ft 9, which is proof that the height of a FB is not an issue! Height of CB's is most definitely an issue! 

And look at the players surrounding him - Terry, Ivanovic, Mikel, Ballack, Lampard, Drogba!! 

Regardless,  my point wasn't really to be a good FB you have to be tall, and I'm sure we can all point to examples that buck the trend, but we have pretty much the smallest team in the league and I think it is the cause for a lot of the goals we concede (that and physicality generally).   You've only got to look at the back four and CDM's that Pep and Arteta put out nowadays to see the direction things are going - Spurs and Villa are the same too. 

How many teams have genuinely outplayed us this season and either deserved a draw or a win against us?  Only the heavy defeats to Wolves, Liverpool and Newcastle spring to mind. 

And then how many teams have robbed a point or a win by being thoroughly outplayed but scoring a header from a set piece, or a ball to the far post?  Loads. 

We are the most naive team in the league.  Genuinely think a couple of big, experienced, leaders would transform us. 

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, Rob B said:

 

We are the most naive team in the league

I wonder why?

[boratsbrother]

5 hours ago, Rob B said:

And look at the players surrounding him - Terry, Ivanovic, Mikel, Ballack, Lampard, Drogba!! 

Regardless,  my point wasn't really to be a good FB you have to be tall, and I'm sure we can all point to examples that buck the trend, but we have pretty much the smallest team in the league and I think it is the cause for a lot of the goals we concede (that and physicality generally).   You've only got to look at the back four and CDM's that Pep and Arteta put out nowadays to see the direction things are going - Spurs and Villa are the same too. 

How many teams have genuinely outplayed us this season and either deserved a draw or a win against us?  Only the heavy defeats to Wolves, Liverpool and Newcastle spring to mind. 

And then how many teams have robbed a point or a win by being thoroughly outplayed but scoring a header from a set piece, or a ball to the far post?  Loads. 

We are the most naive team in the league.  Genuinely think a couple of big, experienced, leaders would transform us. 

I was just making a point that it isn't essential to have tall FB's but it is essential to have height in the CB's positions 

I honestly feel like a goal is coming everytime a cross is played into our box, so  a couple of big,  comanding CB's would make a huge difference to our defence! 

I also fully agree about us only being genuinely outplayed a few times this season. That is another significant point of progress which has not really been mentioned too much on here. It's another reason why I want to see Poch be given another season.

 

[boratsbrother]

5 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

I wonder why?

Can I have ten guesses at this? 😁

[ROTG]

19 hours ago, martin1905 said:

Watching Caicedo and Enzo, who on paper are the perfect pivot,

Q.E.D. 70pts squad on paper, 50pts squad in reality 

[Ham]

4 hours ago, ROTG said:

Q.E.D. 70pts squad on paper, 50pts squad in reality 

If we win all of our remaining games, we're a 70pts squad 😉