Middlesbrough 1 Chelsea 0

[paulw66]

9 minutes ago, CarefreeMuratcan said:

What about the crosses into the box. Cross after cross of nothing. 

To? 

[east lower]

3 minutes ago, Original 21 said:

I actually think Boro played with more desire, more discipline, and better organisation than us. They’ll probably get trounced  by Liverpool if they make it to the final. But I wouldn’t begrudge them a day out at Wembley. And they’ll probably give Liverpool a better game than us. 

Agree with all of that but the last sentence - They beat Boro by at least 4.

[CarefreeMuratcan]

10 minutes ago, Ham said:

I'm one of the most positive posters on here but that was the last straw for me tonight. 

The only problem is that there's nobody out there to replace him. 

Conte is a free agent. A proven winner. 

[Miguelito07]

1 minute ago, CarefreeMuratcan said:

Conte is a free agent. A proven winner. 

He’s not a kids friendly sort-a manager though. He’s also not managed for a while (bit like when we hired Poch)

Edited January 9 by Miguelito07

[CarefreeMuratcan]

1 minute ago, paulw66 said:

To? 

Well that's my point. They should have stopped doing that. It wasn't leading anywhere. Our best chances came from winning possession/inducing mistakes high up and from play down the middle. 

Boro showed us outside and we fell into the trap all game. 

[east lower]

2 minutes ago, Miguelito07 said:

He’s not a friendly sort-a manager though

Changed that one, just a tad 😉. He’d frighten the bejesus out of this precious lot though and I’d include the owners too.

Edited January 9 by east lower

[Rob B]

Just now, Miguelito07 said:

He’s not a kids friendly sort-a manager though

He’s not a -friendly sort of manager, full stop!

He would be a disastrous appointment simply because he is so hot-headed and divisive.  

I don’t follow any European football really but Xavi Alonso seems to be getting a lot of plaudits?

Agree with Martin though, the tide seems to be turning on Poch…

[martin1905]

10 minutes ago, ShedMiddle said:

I thought Poch was going to be good.. I lost the faith a while ago. I've been to every home and four or five aways this season. Every game we see the same thing, the supporters can all see who we should've picked, where they should play and what changes should be made (at least most on a similar wavelength). Poch seems to do the exact opposite. Lack of desire and confidence comes from the top.. There are certain top managers that would at least have the team up for each game.  We've won a few recently but, the performances haven't warranted wins.

Agree with everything you say, especially the bolded bit. Although I would add its not just certain, top managers that are able to do this. It's the most basic, simplest part of a managers job and he's failed in almost every game this season.

 

8 minutes ago, Original 21 said:

I actually think Boro played with more desire, more discipline, and better organisation than us. 

They did, but so have pretty much every team we have played this season. It's not even worrying anymore, it's to be expected. Along with the obvious lack of coaching it's my biggest gripe with him. He can't even get us motivated and up for a game of football, which is his job.

 

[Proud-Blue]

I love Conte, but he and Jose are out of the question under the current ownership. They're both too confrontational. 

The reality is any subsequent manager will be of a Poch or Potter temperament. 

Also, did Conte not take legal action against the club and win? There was a lot of bad blood between people. While I know many have left the club since he was there, I suspect there are still many at Cobham who would not be happy to see him back. 

 

[chara]

Help an OG...my foggy memory tells me The Poch was a "Flavour of the Month" media pushed fresh blood/wind of change young Turk (sorry Carefree) manager at Soton...went to Spuds and was sort of "ordinary" in an EPL type of way with a high or two (benefit of doubt!)........bumbled at PSG and seems to be in the Potter/ Gerrard media folio filings...all name and no substance,,,,I gave up on him after the disgraceful presser post Manure......I come from many years of understanding whatever the situation you go down fighting... Pride is not a Bread related title!

[Miguelito07]

10 minutes ago, Rob B said:

I don’t follow any European football really but Xavi Alonso seems to be getting a lot of plaudits?

He’s doing great things with Leverkusen - top of the league…but I doubt it very much he would jump ship half way through the season. I also doubt he would join next

[east lower]

Having a happy-clappy ship hasn’t worked out too well has it?

What we need is a hard-nosed, but fair man who gets what THEY need to get THEIR strategy enabled.

Not the strategy of know nowt owners and their mid-table recruitment team.

You mess Pep around and don’t follow his rules, you’re out on your ear - ask Cancelo, the other centre-half and Phillips. The first two who’d help him win two or three PL. You come in 2 kilos the wrong weight, you don’t play. Same process worked for SAF, same with successful Jose.

We’re weak and it shows throughout the playing and coaching staff and shows in the most important bit - on the pitch.

 

 

[east lower]

13 minutes ago, chara said:

……..I come from many years of understanding whatever the situation you go down fighting... Pride is not a Bread related title!

And Winalot ain’t just a dog-food - but is a premise that this current bloke can’t fathom out. 😉 

Just seen this in another site, banner allegedly seen in our away end tonight.

Edited January 9 by east lower

[Proud-Blue]

Turns out we are all confused and the fans weren't booing the players. 🙃

 

 

[east lower]

2 minutes ago, Proud-Blue said:

Turns out we are all confused and the fans weren't booing the players. 🙃

 

 

Best talk to @martin1905 to see how that one worked out Mr Coach.

He must have been talking way too much to the Americans, that’s their way to handle negative PR - just keep on denying it happened.

[boratsbrother]

36 minutes ago, Miguelito07 said:

He’s not a kids friendly sort-a manager though. He’s also not managed for a while (bit like when we hired Poch)

The last kind of personality a young squad of players needs as a manager would be a very stern, moody, hot headed one.  

Alonso would be an interesting choice but why would any young manager making a good impression want to come here now? Come here and be under pressure to turn things around in a few months and start hearing calls for them to be sacked if they don't. Pretty sure he'll fancy the Liverpool job when Klopp leaves and won't risk any setback by coming here.

Btw. Will fans still want Poch sacked even if we win the League Cup?

 

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Sacking the manager won't solve missing chances and the clear lack of a CF

We have a proven goal scoring CF on the books, who was sent to Coventry on loan in the summer  ,😃

Sorry could not resist.. that's it honest. 

[kev61]

2 hours ago, Miguelito07 said:

He’s not a kids friendly sort-a manager though. He’s also not managed for a while (bit like when we hired Poch)

The difference between Poch and Conte is Conte is a winner.I would imagine Conte will keep his powder dry until the right job offer comes around.

Conte will never come here unless he has assurances from the board.Conte doesn't need to convince the board,the board needs to convince him.

I agree we need a manager that can take these youngsters in hand - but how do you do that when they are on long contracts?.

I would have Conte back in a heartbeat but it's not going to happen.I would also have Tuchel back and Jose even though I have no time for the latter.

We can't continue with a guy that you know might as well do a video recording of himself doing a team talk.

He has no personality, no passion and above all no tactical coaching nous.

[Original 21]

If only we could have predicted that Broja was coming back from a serious injury and would struggle to have any real impact, never mind start two games a week. Or that Jackson would be going to the AFCON in January. Or that Nkunku’s injury was serious enough to  keep him out for several months. So that come January we’d have no strikers available to start a game. 

It’s just bad luck I guess and nothing to do with poor planning and lousy recruitment. 

[ROTG]

51 minutes ago, kev61 said:

The difference between Poch and Conte is Conte is a winner.I would imagine Conte will keep his powder dry until the right job offer comes around.

Conte will never come here unless he has assurances from the board.Conte doesn't need to convince the board,the board needs to convince him.

I agree we need a manager that can take these youngsters in hand - but how do you do that when they are on long contracts?.

I would have Conte back in a heartbeat but it's not going to happen.I would also have Tuchel back and Jose even though I have no time for the latter.

We can't continue with a guy that you know might as well do a video recording of himself doing a team talk.

He has no personality, no passion and above all no tactical coaching nous.

Marcelo Bielsa time?

[xceleryx]

6 hours ago, paulw66 said:

Colwill at left back is a problem for me. He's a CB

Got caught out a bit for their goal and offers no threat. 

He is, and it is a problem, but it's also one that's kinda born by also having Thiago Silva still playing such a pivotal role in the side. Hear me out there for a moment. 

While our default formation has us playing a back four when we're not in possession, that tends to shift into a back three, like it does with many sides these days, when possession is had. 

Now, here's the Thiago Silva conundrum. He lacks pace, so that automatically hampers the defensive line that can be held. Ideally pressing sides want a higher line to compress the pitch and make it smaller, therefore harder for the opposition to play their way out of. The other issue with Thiago Silva, and this has been a factor across his career to date, is that he also doesn't like, or is more uncomfortable, defending the wider areas of the pitch. You combine both of these factors and you're left with two real choices - either protect him when he plays or don't pick him at all. 

Generally when a side shifts it's shape to a back three in possession you'd have the DM drop and become that third defender, with the two central defenders splitting off and becoming right and left sided centre backs. We can't really do this with Thiago Silva for the two main reasons above and having him wider, so we're then forced to protect him, and the best way to do that is by allowing him to remain that central option in the back three.

A team won't really want to have their DM slot in as one of the R/L CB's if it can be avoided, and in our case it's something we don't want to do with Caicedo because once you take him from the middle, it requires too many others to begin shifting around to fill gaps. More moving parts equals more opportunities for gaps to be exploited if people aren't *cough* standing in the right spots *cough*. 

Colwill helps bridge that problem to a degree by playing LB. It allows us to keep Thiago Silva in the side and in a more centralised position when we shift our shape, it then allows us to retain Caicedo in the middle of the pitch to offer protection and a ball-winner deeper, and means everyone else can sort of play their proper positions as per normal. The issue then becomes more about whether Colwill can do his defensive duties when called upon, and of late that's just not happened. When that's the case, plus his limited offensive input, we're faced with a net negative. 

Even if Chilwell was fit we'd not be wanting him to be that LCB in a three, that mutes all of his strengths. We'd be wanting him pushed high and wide up the pitch. So then you'd have Caicedo having to push over to LCB, then kinda means Palmer has to drop back into a CM role, with the left winger pushing inside more to cater for Chilwell being high and wide and to occupy more of that #10 type area to support the CF that Palmer abandons. 

As you can see, it's all a bit of a mess. If we dropped Thiago Silva then we'd have a bit more pace in the backline to play a higher line, but it would also mean that his replacement can split and be that wider CB when we gain possession, with Caicedo then dropping back to split the two in a more conventional manner. 

I'm not big on knocking Thiago Silva when he's still our best central option, but unfortunately his limitations at this stage of a career to have a flow on effect tactically. Not that it excuses the awful fundamentals Colwill has shown, which would still be required whether he's playing as he is at fullback or in his more conventional centre-back role. 

 

[thevelourfog]

7 hours ago, east lower said:

Let that sink in, especially those who think that he isn’t the primary issue.

Well, he really clearly isn't. We've had lots of terrible firsts or firsts in decades since these owners came in, and the depressing reality is that is going to continue for a long time here regardless of who the coach is.

Which isn't said to defend or recommend Pochettino at all. 

[xceleryx]

5 hours ago, east lower said:

Having a happy-clappy ship hasn’t worked out too well has it?

What we need is a hard-nosed, but fair man who gets what THEY need to get THEIR strategy enabled.

Not the strategy of know nowt owners and their mid-table recruitment team.

You mess Pep around and don’t follow his rules, you’re out on your ear - ask Cancelo, the other centre-half and Phillips. The first two who’d help him win two or three PL. You come in 2 kilos the wrong weight, you don’t play. Same process worked for SAF, same with successful Jose.

We’re weak and it shows throughout the playing and coaching staff and shows in the most important bit - on the pitch.

You kinda need strong foundations across the board first before this sort of power can be fully effective. 

Very few managers the the keys to everything like a Pep or SAF have had.

[xceleryx]

3 hours ago, Original 21 said:

If only we could have predicted that Broja was coming back from a serious injury and would struggle to have any real impact, never mind start two games a week. Or that Jackson would be going to the AFCON in January. Or that Nkunku’s injury was serious enough to  keep him out for several months. So that come January we’d have no strikers available to start a game. 

It’s just bad luck I guess and nothing to do with poor planning and lousy recruitment. 

And sign who exactly? 

That's kinda the other issue here, the alternative options out there are either horrendous overpriced, aren't good enough, talented but also not entirely proven. 

£60-70 million on Ivan Toney would still have people annoyed. £100m+ for Oshimen is highway robbery. 

Then you've got the lad who was at Coventry last season that's now doing well at Sporting, Santiago Gimenez over in Holland, who may end up another Kezman. They're some of the "best" options at present that aren't already at established clubs but would still demand fairly high fees with no real great assurances. 

The pool itself is increasingly shallow.

[east lower]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

You kinda need strong foundations across the board first before this sort of power can be fully effective. 

Very few managers the the keys to everything like a Pep or SAF have had.

Which in itself is not logical as those two you refer to are two of the three most successful PL/1st Division (old speak) managers/coaches of all time.

Problem stems from owners who believe they can run football clubs themselves without due experience, hiring in said experience in our case using a model that’s never won a PL title. It’s got team promotion and some improvements, but won nothing in England or a CL. 
 

Going into micro-analysis of players performances, abilities isn’t steadying this club now, it’s the macro stuff that needs change.

1 hour ago, thevelourfog said:

Well, he really clearly isn't. We've had lots of terrible firsts or firsts in decades since these owners came in, and the depressing reality is that is going to continue for a long time here regardless of who the coach is.

Which isn't said to defend or recommend Pochettino at all. 

He’s the primary and immediate issue, I don’t disagree at all that the longer-term problem is the ownership, the people they have running the show and their football focussed appointments. But all the latter aren’t going anywhere soon and we have got to hope that they see the error in their ways - that’s not a completely forlorn hope as money, or the lack of it might demonstrate they’ve messed it up royally. 
 

But the very first thing that has to be rectified is that this coach has to go, he not just a symptom of the ownerships errors, he’s the causation of so much more.