Aston Villa 2 Chelsea 2

[chrisb]

2 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

One small prick deserves another

Jesus NB, I’m 5’ 10”! 
 

The prick bit’s about right though.

[NoblyBobly]

7 minutes ago, chrisb said:

I don’t think anyone is really slandering our achievements but just pointing out that although Havertz scored the winning goal in the CL final he just wasn’t that good for us. Apart from that one moment Havertz on the whole failed to impress in my opinion.

The problem with this argument now Chris is that I can’t take anything you say seriously anymore with that new avatar. 

[chrisb]

2 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

The problem with this argument now Chris is that I can’t take anything you say seriously anymore with that new avatar. 

You only have yourself to blame for that! 😉

[NoblyBobly]

27 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I don't care what Enzo did for Argentina. I am talking about not constantly playing down our REAL achievements and slandering the people who contributed to them.

Small point of order. I think the word would be libelling not slandering,  unless he’s repeating the accusations out loud ( which we can’t be sure of). 

[Max Fowler]

24 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

I’m not sure how, but the topic has moved on to chrisb’s penis and some historic problems with said tadger. Do you have any words of wisdom for Chris whose unfortunate condition was apparently dealt with by application of chocolate custard? 

I hope he kept his trousers on around his pets!

[Max Fowler]

24 minutes ago, chrisb said:

I don’t think anyone is really slandering our achievements but just pointing out that although Havertz scored the winning goal in the CL final he just wasn’t that good for us. Apart from that one moment Havertz on the whole failed to impress in my opinion.

IMO if a player scores the winning goal in the CL we should practically every sentence we talk about him be saying. I am forever grateful for Kai for scoring THAT goal - he never fulfilled his potential though etc.

I quibble with sentences like "If he hadn't scored that goal he wouldn't have done nothing." But he did!

Also - I was literally debating with someone earlier who basically argued we got lucky to beat City and it didn't really count because it was behind closed doors. How is that not playing down our achievements?

[Max Fowler]

29 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Like who? Havertz? Good Lord let it go man!

No, not just Havertz. Roman, Tuchel, and Kovacic to name three more.

[NoblyBobly]

7 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I hope he kept his trousers on around his pets!

It didn’t sound like he kept his trousers on for pretty much anything! 

[chrisb]

4 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

IMO if a player scores the winning goal in the CL we should practically every sentence we talk about him be saying. I am forever grateful for Kai for scoring THAT goal - he never fulfilled his potential though etc.

I quibble with sentences like "If he hadn't scored that goal he wouldn't have done nothing." But he did!

Also - I was literally debating with someone earlier who basically argued we got lucky to beat City and it didn't really count because it was behind closed doors. How is that not playing down our achievements?

Nobody is saying that they’re not grateful for him scoring that goal just that he wasn’t that good, that’s all.

 

[Ham]

5 hours ago, kev61 said:

You seem to be upset about other people's views on Havertz.

Just because he scored the winning goal in the champions league final doesn't make him a super star.

He is bang average  player on massive wages.

There was a kid that lived on my street called Steve Morrow who scored the winner in the league cup final for Arsenal in 1993.

He was very much a periphery player for Arsenal and most people will not remember him.

The p oint I'm making is you can have a player that scored an outstanding goal in a big competition but really aint that good.

We bought Enzo because he is a one world cup wonder at a huge cost ...he ain't that good.

Yup.  I only remember Steve Morrow for being dropped by Tony Adams. Nothing else. 

 

[chrisb]

2 minutes ago, NoblyBobly said:

It didn’t sound like he kept his trousers on for pretty much anything! 

It was medically proven that I had a naturally cloth repellent body.

[My Blood Is Blue]

13 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

IMO if a player scores the winning goal in the CL we should practically every sentence we talk about him be saying. I am forever grateful for Kai for scoring THAT goal - he never fulfilled his potential though etc.

Why?!

Am I grateful for Havertz scoring his one single goal in the Champions League that season, in the final and it being the goal that won us that final? Yes, yes I am. It was a brilliant moment, one of my highlights as a Chelsea fan. That goal doesn’t suddenly flip my opinion on how he was for us over the 3 years at the club. In my opinion, and it is just an opinion, he was pretty average when he was with us and I was expecting a lot more from him and so he to me, was a disappointment.

He is and wasn’t a bad player, but he should have done so much more for us over the 3 years he was with us. Thats not to say him scoring that goal in the CL final wasn’t a massive moment, but that was 1 match out of many he played for us.

As another example, when I think of Drogba, I don’t just think of that goal in Munich, I think of all the goals he scored for us in so many finals, the matches he single handily won for us through ability and pure determination. He was a fantastic player for us, one of our best and that goal in Munich was one of his greatest moments, but he had so many great moments and that’s why he is so fondly thought of and doesn’t need to be used as a caveat. Havertz on the other hand had 1 moment in 1 game that we can remember, so would be a caveat to his time with us, but not a caveat I’m going to use for every opinion I have of him.

[NoblyBobly]

3 minutes ago, chrisb said:

It was medically proven that I had a naturally cloth repellent body.

You certainly were of interest to the medical profession!

[Max Fowler]

6 minutes ago, chrisb said:

Nobody is saying that they’re not grateful for him scoring that goal just that he wasn’t that good, that’s all.

And I agree that he wasn't consistent enough, but I don't agree he was as bad as people say. I have heard comments like "he was garbage for three years". That's clearly not the case. He was a big part of peak Tuchel and even if not prolific G/A wise, he was a massive part of how we played.

Again - I don't even know how we got back onto Havertz. 1) I had let it go but Kev brought it back up 2) I am much more interested in generally talking about the attitude towards our former achievements, which goes beyond Havertz.

[NoblyBobly]

3 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

And I agree that he wasn't consistent enough, but I don't agree he was as bad as people say. I have heard comments like "he was garbage for three years". That's clearly not the case. He was a big part of peak Tuchel and even if not prolific G/A wise, he was a massive part of how we played.

Again - I don't even know how we got back onto Havertz. 1) I had let it go but Kev brought it back up 2) I am much more interested in generally talking about the attitude towards our former achievements, which goes beyond Havertz.

He had his moments. Awful first 6 months but he had covid very bad and seemed to have trouble shaking. Better under Tuchel and regressed under Potter. I did champion him at one point but generally way way to inconsistent. 

[east lower]

25 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

 

Also - I was literally debating with someone earlier who basically argued we got lucky to beat City and it didn't really count because it was behind closed doors. How is that not playing down our achievements?

Well, when you're talking to them next - tell them it wasn't played behind closed doors. Restricted numbers of less than 15000 or so I believe. 

And I still have the photos and videos on my phone to ratify that. Great day, but nowhere near as good as Munich. 

Also, having a full house would probably have made no difference  - they're quieter than most. As soon as the teams were announced that night you noticed them pretty much go quieter still. No doubt in my mind that Pep overthought it, having lost the last two games played against us with Tuchel.

Edited April 27 by east lower

[Max Fowler]

I mean let me quote just one example from one poster @boratsbrother  for you @chrisb @NoblyBobly and @My Blood Is Blue to show you what I think downplaying our achievements looks like:

"The hard facts prove beyond any doubt that the teams of our golden era under Roman were superior to the later years and far, far superior to what we've seen in recent years, including that team which won the CL in 2021. We won the CL in a wierd season played behind closed doors  when we finished 19 points behind City in the league but somehow managed to beat them in a one off game.  It was those years which started the serious rot. Those years where we started to look way, way short of the best. Those years where we started to consistently shit the bed in the big games."

I'm sorry - what is this drivel? Okay peak JT, Lamps and Drogba was better than Thiago, Kovacic and Havertz. Great. I agree Fact of the matter is both groups still only won the Champions League once and that's a huge part of our history.

"Constantly shit the bed in big games"? Any memory of Athletico, Porto, Real Madrid, and Man City?

We "somehow managed to beat" Man City. No we didn't. We absolutely controlled them. It was a tactical masterclass from Tuchel and the entire team. We were far more in control of that game, far more deserving of the win than we were against Bayern in 2012. And again, I don't want to compare the two - that is exactly the downplaying that I don't like.

If you think that people are not downplaying our achievements with this kind of comments then maybe you should read them more closely. 

[chrisb]

1 minute ago, Max Fowler said:

And I agree that he wasn't consistent enough, but I don't agree he was as bad as people say. I have heard comments like "he was garbage for three years". That's clearly not the case. He was a big part of peak Tuchel and even if not prolific G/A wise, he was a massive part of how we played.

Again - I don't even know how we got back onto Havertz. 1) I had let it go but Kev brought it back up 2) I am much more interested in generally talking about the attitude towards our former achievements, which goes beyond Havertz.

Again I can’t think of anyone having an attitude towards our past achievements. As a Chelsea fan of many years standing with nothing really to celebrate (apart from the Zenith Data cup in 88/89) I’m absolutely thrilled by everything we’ve won over the last 20 or so years, things we could only dream about in the dark old days.

 I honestly think that you maybe read too much into peoples opinions and think that everybody’s against you, we’re not! 
I thought Frode Grodas was a good keeper but I’m sure others thought he was crap, that’s how it is. I’m not going to press the issue as it’s just my opinion and I don’t need or want everyone else to agree with me.

[Max Fowler]

1 minute ago, east lower said:

Well, when you're talking to them next - tell them it wasn't played behind closed doors. Restricted numbers of 24000 I believe. 

And I still have the photos and videos on my phone to ratify that. Great day, but nowhere near as good as Munich. 

Also, having a full house would probably have made no difference  - they're quieter than most. As soon as the teams were announced that night you noticed them pretty much go quieter still. No doubt in my mind that Pep overthought it, having lost the last two games played against us with Tuchel.

Good point East Lower. To me Munich was incredible because of how magically we won, and because it was our first time. But if you are asking which was the more dominant performance - 2021 by far. It is being made out we were lucky to win the Champions League under Tuchel. Actually we were far more arguably lucky to win it under Di Matteo, but the football gods were shining on us that season and sheer magic was created.

[Max Fowler]

17 minutes ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

Why?!

Am I grateful for Havertz scoring his one single goal in the Champions League that season, in the final and it being the goal that won us that final? Yes, yes I am. It was a brilliant moment, one of my highlights as a Chelsea fan. That goal doesn’t suddenly flip my opinion on how he was for us over the 3 years at the club. In my opinion, and it is just an opinion, he was pretty average when he was with us and I was expecting a lot more from him and so he to me, was a disappointment.

He is and wasn’t a bad player, but he should have done so much more for us over the 3 years he was with us. Thats not to say him scoring that goal in the CL final wasn’t a massive moment, but that was 1 match out of many he played for us.

As another example, when I think of Drogba, I don’t just think of that goal in Munich, I think of all the goals he scored for us in so many finals, the matches he single handily won for us through ability and pure determination. He was a fantastic player for us, one of our best and that goal in Munich was one of his greatest moments, but he had so many great moments and that’s why he is so fondly thought of and doesn’t need to be used as a caveat. Havertz on the other hand had 1 moment in 1 game that we can remember, so would be a caveat to his time with us, but not a caveat I’m going to use for every opinion I have of him.

Again Sam, we agree on most of this. Comparing Havertz to Drogba is only going to end one way. Drogba is a true Chelsea legend. But to me Havertz will also be a "legend" of sorts because he delivered on the biggest occasion.

Havertz was pretty solid and important for a lot of the Tuchel era (not just for his goal contributions but work of the ball), still inconsistent at times, but also what came after during Potter was really poor and he seemed to regress.

I don't mind these kind of critiques. What I baulk at is comments like "He was absolute garbage for 3 seasons". (not saying you said that). No he wasn't. and he deserves more respect than that partly because he scored that goal.

[xceleryx]

41 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

IMO if a player scores the winning goal in the CL we should practically every sentence we talk about him be saying. I am forever grateful for Kai for scoring THAT goal - he never fulfilled his potential though etc.

I quibble with sentences like "If he hadn't scored that goal he wouldn't have done nothing." But he did!

Also - I was literally debating with someone earlier who basically argued we got lucky to beat City and it didn't really count because it was behind closed doors. How is that not playing down our achievements?

No doubt I'll regret chipping in on this but....

There is a difference between downplaying achievements and simply being aware of the circumstance and context at the time. We weren't a great side, we weren't even a good side comparative to other teams that lined up in the competition or even our own domestic league. We were decent however, with the ability and quality to beat anyone on our day, but by large it lacked the consistency and underlying quality to really be great - our league performances showcased this. Hence the cup side label that we'd started receiving in recent years. 

I'm sure we're all pleased to have won the Champions League that season, at the time it also likely had a negative impact because it created a false reality where many believed we were probably better than we actually were, and therefore demanded more that simply couldn't be delivered. 

Either way, I appreciate Havertz scoring that goal but outside of that and a handful of other performances he was largely disappointing given the reputation he arrived with. Can't say I miss him in any playing capacity. 

[ROTG]

7 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

No doubt I'll regret chipping in on this but....

There is a difference between downplaying achievements and simply being aware of the circumstance and context at the time. We weren't a great side, we weren't even a good side comparative to other teams that lined up in the competition or even our own domestic league. We were decent however, with the ability and quality to beat anyone on our day, but by large it lacked the consistency and underlying quality to really be great - our league performances showcased this. Hence the cup side label that we'd started receiving in recent years. 

I'm sure we're all pleased to have won the Champions League that season, at the time it also likely had a negative impact because it created a false reality where many believed we were probably better than we actually were, and therefore demanded more that simply couldn't be delivered. 

Either way, I appreciate Havertz scoring that goal but outside of that and a handful of other performances he was largely disappointing given the reputation he arrived with. Can't say I miss him in any playing capacity. 

Absolute tosh

Just Another attempt to undermined the club achievements under the previous regime, because the success didn't fit Mr xceleryx narrative on how a successful football club should play football.

Some of us on here will be push up daises before the club gets any kind of continuous  success as seen the previous regime.

[Max Fowler]

13 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

No doubt I'll regret chipping in on this but....

There is a difference between downplaying achievements and simply being aware of the circumstance and context at the time. We weren't a great side, we weren't even a good side comparative to other teams that lined up in the competition or even our own domestic league. We were decent however, with the ability and quality to beat anyone on our day, but by large it lacked the consistency and underlying quality to really be great - our league performances showcased this. Hence the cup side label that we'd started receiving in recent years. 

I'm sure we're all pleased to have won the Champions League that season, at the time it also likely had a negative impact because it created a false reality where many believed we were probably better than we actually were, and therefore demanded more that simply couldn't be delivered. 

Either way, I appreciate Havertz scoring that goal but outside of that and a handful of other performances he was largely disappointing given the reputation he arrived with. Can't say I miss him in any playing capacity. 

I am aware of that difference Celery. I have said ever said anything different. 

Nonetheless we were a great side - in the Champions League. We dominated that season. Arguably Tuchel may particularly be a great Champions League manager. We were incredibly consistent and dominant in that competition.

I agree that we had become more successful in cups than in the league under Roman. Our league form and squad needed work over a few years.

Again - if you can't see the particular type of comment that I am baulking at then maybe you need to read a little more closely. It's all a matter of degrees.

 

[boratsbrother]

8 minutes ago, Max Fowler said:

I am aware of that difference Celery. I have said ever said anything different. 

Nonetheless we were a great side - in the Champions League. We dominated that season. Arguably Tuchel may particularly be a great Champions League manager. We were incredibly consistent and dominant in that competition.

I agree that we had become more successful in cups than in the league under Roman. Our league form and squad needed work over a few years.

Again - if you can't see the particular type of comment that I am baulking at then maybe you need to read a little more closely. It's all a matter of degrees.

 

One great run in a cup competition in 6 years is simply not by any stretch of the imagination  the definition of a great side!  

The knockout stages are a stroll for any half decent team. Then you're info a few knockout games and a final where anything can happen on the day. Always thrilled to win the big Euro trophy but imho it only holds serious bragging rights of being the best in Europe when you go into it in the year when you're champs of your country as well. No way could we say that in 2021 when we were 19 points behind City and 4 years since we won the league.

Same with Liverpool when they won it under Rafa. Great for them but not in the same ball park as them winning it when they were the best in England like they were in their previous winning years.

Imho, we haven't  been a genuinely great team since the time of Carlo. Winning the CL under RD was the final flicker of the flame from that all-time greatest Chelsea era. A couple of good league titles and a CL in the last 12 years is of course  something to be happy with, but we have fallen away a lot from the European power  we once were. A lot of the football has been dull to watch  during those years as well. From Sarri onwards, I've not enjoyed watching us play all that many times. Very slow,  sterlie and pragmatic football doesn't do it for me. In terms of entertaining games of football,  I've actually  enjoyed quite a lot of this season.

 

[Max Fowler]

6 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

Always thrilled to win the big Euro trophy but imho it only holds serious bragging rights of being the best in Europe when you go into it in the year when you're champs of your country as well. No way could we say that in 2021 when we were 19 points behind City and 4 years since we won the league.

So we couldn't brag about being the best in Europe in 2012 either then?

I think we mostly agree honestly but we WERE a great side in the Champions League in 20/21. We may not have been able to replicate that in the league but in the CL that season we were absolutely phenomenal.

That means in that cup competition which again means more to me than the league, we were able to raise our form to absolutely be a great side on those big occasions.