Ham Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 37 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: Notice little to no actual engagement on the argument, folks. Only @xceleryx is continuing the line of argument that having Disasi and Colwill in the side stops us being caught in behind. Fine. Colwill is very young and can learn. Honest question: Who here thinks Disasi has been good enough over the course of the season? Again - watch the goal back from Sunday - he completely lost VVD and blamed it on Mudryk. How many ball giveaways did we witness on Sunday from Disasi, and Colwill? We called Disasi "disaster" for most of the season and suddenly after one good game he's good enough? We need a new top level centre-half - again Gusto, Palmer, Petrovic have been consistently brilliant. I like Jackson too. But nothing about Disasi or Badiashille have proven to be top level defenders that will win us trophies - unlike the likes of Gusto who I believe can compete at the absolute highest level. No more engagement because you just relentlessly hammer the same points across to the point where it's not worth engaging. That's not discussion. It's soapboxing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 7 minutes ago, Ham said: No more engagement because you just relentlessly hammer the same points across to the point where it's not worth engaging. That's not discussion. It's soapboxing. No I don't. Brand new data just came it about the fact that Disasi vitally lost his man on the corner and you are ignoring it. You will not admit that Disasi cost us the trophy with that marking and blamed Mudryk. Please, tell me who else was to blame on the key corner other than Disasi? That's called sticking your head in the sand Ham and blaming me for supposedly not engaging in discussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: No I don't. Brand new data just came it about the fact that Disasi vitally lost his man on the corner and you are ignoring it. You will not admit that Disasi cost us the trophy with that marking and blamed Mudryk. Please, tell me who else was to blame on the key corner other than Disasi? That's called sticking your head in the sand Ham and blaming me for supposedly not engaging in discussion! We conceded a single goal after 118 minutes to a £70m monster from a set piece FFS. The defence was fine. Same as it was against City and others recently. I know why we lost the trophy. It was Gallagher and Palmer and Nkunku and everyone else who failed to put the ball in the feckin net. Just take a chill pill and accept that we see things differently. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 37 minutes ago, boratsbrother said: Also be yet another manager coming in who'll have his own idea of how to set up teans and how to play, then he leaves and we bring in someone else who'll want to play a different way. I honestly can't think of a poorer, more confusing way to progress a team than do something like that. As I said, it smacks of desperation! Look at the way City have been managed for the last 15 years. Each manager has played a quite similar technical style of football leading to Pep who improved on what had been built. Liverpool are highly likely to hire someone who'll continue with the Klopp style plus add some ideas of his own. Continuity helps a team grow and mould an identity, not constant chopping and changing. You cannot just stick with an idiot just for continuities' sake , all you then get is more idiot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 28 minutes ago, Ham said: We conceded a single goal after 118 minutes to a £70m monster from a set piece FFS. The defence was fine. Same as it was against City and others recently. I know why we lost the trophy. It was Gallagher and Palmer and Nkunku and everyone else who failed to put the ball in the feckin net. Just take a chill pill and accept that we see things differently. I accept we see things differently! If you think Disasi's marking was acceptable on the set piece in the final minute of the game, then fine, more power to you 🫡 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: I accept we see things differently! If you think Disasi's marking was acceptable on the set piece in the final minute of the game, then fine, more power to you 🫡 And if you think the coach has not confused the issue by moving all the defenders around for no apparent reason then more power to you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDCW Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Max Fowler said: Notice little to no actual engagement on the argument, folks. Only @xceleryx is continuing the line of argument that having Disasi and Colwill in the side stops us being caught in behind. Fine. Colwill is very young and can learn. Honest question: Who here thinks Disasi has been good enough over the course of the season? Again - watch the goal back from Sunday - he completely lost VVD and blamed it on Mudryk. How many ball giveaways did we witness on Sunday from Disasi, and Colwill? We called Disasi "disaster" for most of the season and suddenly after one good game he's good enough? We need a new top level centre-half - again Gusto, Palmer, Petrovic have been consistently brilliant. I like Jackson too. But nothing about Disasi or Badiashille have proven to be top level defenders that will win us trophies - unlike the likes of Gusto who I believe can compete at the absolute highest level. Well I agree with you about Gusto, Palmer, Petrovic and Jackson (whom I believe will improve in confidence and consistency and turn out to be a good addition), but not on Disasi, whom I believe will come good. All central defenders make mistakes, even the very best, so I wouldn't hang him on a single error. I think we have seen a general improvement in him and will continue to do so. Silva is gone in the summer, so there is no point in playing him for the rest of this dead rubber season. Badiashile has not looked good, but is clearly better than his form would suggest. Fofana is probably the best of all of the centre backs but it is looking doubtful that he will ever be fit enough to play himself into form. As to the midfield Caicedo and Enzo are obviously good players, but have not been integrated, have not been deployed properly by the coach and have not had the support of a rational tactical plan. Nkunku should be playing more. Gallagher and Colwill will continue to develop. Injuries and inadequate coaching and discipline have prevented us from being top 6, which is where the resources available should have placed us. I would get rid of Sterling, Madueke, Mudryk, Chilwell (controversial I know), Sanchez (unless he is content to remain No2), Cucurella. We obviously need to add an out and out attacker, a new left back + perhaps Lewis Hall as backup, and we need a pure holding midfielder and 2 new competent wide players. In other words, 6 additions to the squad and 5 departures. We have good cover in the form of Chalobah, Gilchrist, Big Les. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 15 minutes ago, RDCW said: Well I agree with you about Gusto, Palmer, Petrovic and Jackson (whom I believe will improve in confidence and consistency and turn out to be a good addition), but not on Disasi, whom I believe will come good. All central defenders make mistakes, even the very best, so I wouldn't hang him on a single error. I think we have seen a general improvement in him and will continue to do so. Silva is gone in the summer, so there is no point in playing him for the rest of this dead rubber season. Badiashile has not looked good, but is clearly better than his form would suggest. Fofana is probably the best of all of the centre backs but it is looking doubtful that he will ever be fit enough to play himself into form. As to the midfield Caicedo and Enzo are obviously good players, but have not been integrated, have not been deployed properly by the coach and have not had the support of a rational tactical plan. Nkunku should be playing more. Gallagher and Colwill will continue to develop. Injuries and inadequate coaching and discipline have prevented us from being top 6, which is where the resources available should have placed us. I would get rid of Sterling, Madueke, Mudryk, Chilwell (controversial I know), Sanchez (unless he is content to remain No2), Cucurella. We obviously need to add an out and out attacker, a new left back + perhaps Lewis Hall as backup, and we need a pure holding midfielder and 2 new competent wide players. In other words, 6 additions to the squad and 5 departures. We have good cover in the form of Chalobah, Gilchrist, Big Les. At least you admit Disasi made an error that cost us the cup final and needs to "come good". I think you could have added that his distribution was rubbish at the weekend too. Some people on here are implying that he is already a top level defender. He is clearly not - he has been very mixed and even poor this season, one good performance does not a top defender make. I mostly agree with your analysis of players but I don't think you can isolate all of these collections of individuals and be so confident they will all come good. We need the right mix of characters, leaders, quality, and experience. None of the players you have mentioned show a jot of that - we literally have a complete absence of leaders all over the pitch. Some people have projected onto Disasi that mantle but he has shown incapable of being anything of the sort so far, berating Mudryk for his own critical error that cost us the cup final. One match of fist pumping doesn't make him brilliant - he has shown to be a "disaster" signing (hence the nickname) - we will never win the league with Disasi as our main centre half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonb Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 18 minutes ago, RDCW said: Well I agree with you about Gusto, Palmer, Petrovic and Jackson (whom I believe will improve in confidence and consistency and turn out to be a good addition), but not on Disasi, whom I believe will come good. All central defenders make mistakes, even the very best, so I wouldn't hang him on a single error. I think we have seen a general improvement in him and will continue to do so. Silva is gone in the summer, so there is no point in playing him for the rest of this dead rubber season. Badiashile has not looked good, but is clearly better than his form would suggest. Fofana is probably the best of all of the centre backs but it is looking doubtful that he will ever be fit enough to play himself into form. As to the midfield Caicedo and Enzo are obviously good players, but have not been integrated, have not been deployed properly by the coach and have not had the support of a rational tactical plan. Nkunku should be playing more. Gallagher and Colwill will continue to develop. Injuries and inadequate coaching and discipline have prevented us from being top 6, which is where the resources available should have placed us. I would get rid of Sterling, Madueke, Mudryk, Chilwell (controversial I know), Sanchez (unless he is content to remain No2), Cucurella. We obviously need to add an out and out attacker, a new left back + perhaps Lewis Hall as backup, and we need a pure holding midfielder and 2 new competent wide players. In other words, 6 additions to the squad and 5 departures. We have good cover in the form of Chalobah, Gilchrist, Big Les. Chilwell I'm on the fence on as Cucurella is like the Scarlet Pipernel and I don't think Lewis Hall sees himself as a LB. We only have Gusto at right back unless you think Gilchrist can play there or want Disais as cover. Madueke might be worth keeping as an impact sub, although Palace might be his level. I want to see Nkunku start as a No.9 so we can judge him better i agree a pure holding m/f would be good. If we sell Sterling don't think we can just rely on Mudryk though guess there is Jackson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Max Fowler said: At least you admit Disasi made an error that cost us the cup final and needs to "come good". I think you could have added that his distribution was rubbish at the weekend too. Some people on here are implying that he is already a top level defender. He is clearly not - he has been very mixed and even poor this season, one good performance does not a top defender make. I mostly agree with your analysis of players but I don't think you can isolate all of these collections of individuals and be so confident they will all come good. We need the right mix of characters, leaders, quality, and experience. None of the players you have mentioned show a jot of that - we literally have a complete absence of leaders all over the pitch. Some people have projected onto Disasi that mantle but he has shown incapable of being anything of the sort so far, berating Mudryk for his own critical error that cost us the cup final. One match of fist pumping doesn't make him brilliant - he has shown to be a "disaster" signing (hence the nickname) - we will never win the league with Disasi as our main centre half. Max Sit down , I want to break this to you gently. We're not winning the league in at least the next ten years and especially if we don't jettison this clown of a coach as soon as possible . You keep blaming the players but the reason we see such disparity in performance levels is partly their age and inexperience but it's mainly that we have a coach who thinks tactics are little minty sweets that come in a plastic box and appears to actively seek to get the worst out of them instead of the better. Change the coach for someone who hasn't proven themselves to be a complete failure and we will see improvements in all of the players . He finally lucked into a decent pairing at CB and couldn't help but fiddle with it , drawing a game we were winning and losing a game we were drawing and then spewed out bullshit reasons about tiredness in the media to deflect from his inadequacies as a coach. Not one player has improved under Pochettino , they're all worse players now than when they crossed the threshold at Cobham. I can almost guarantee that if we steer clear of Southgate , Enrique , Xavi we will improve beyond measure . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backbiter Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Max Fowler said: No I don't. Brand new data just came it about the fact that Disasi vitally lost his man on the corner and you are ignoring it. You will not admit that Disasi cost us the trophy with that marking and blamed Mudryk. Please, tell me who else was to blame on the key corner other than Disasi? That's called sticking your head in the sand Ham and blaming me for supposedly not engaging in discussion! Maybe showing my ignorance of the finer points of defensive organisation at corners, but when a team is defending zonally does any one player have responsibility for man-marking someone? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Backbiter said: Maybe showing my ignorance of the finer points of defensive organisation at corners, but when a team is defending zonally does any one player have responsibility for man-marking someone? Particularly when they've just been jumbled up (again) by design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 6 minutes ago, Backbiter said: Maybe showing my ignorance of the finer points of defensive organisation at corners, but when a team is defending zonally does any one player have responsibility for man-marking someone? He is supposed to be “our new leader” at the back. Watch the video. He clearly loses VVD. Does Poch deserve criticism too? Sure. But Disasi messed up fair and square for the goal. Huge error from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Max Fowler said: He is supposed to be “our new leader” at the back. Watch the video. He clearly loses VVD. Does Poch deserve criticism too? Sure. But Disasi messed up fair and square for the goal. Huge error from him. Is he? Do you think someone should tell him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Box of Tricks Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 27 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: I can almost guarantee that if we steer clear of Southgate , Enrique , Xavi we will improve beyond measure . You've unlocked a new fear, Gareth Southgate is the perfect Clearlake manager. Playing the Steve Holland card will probably swing it for him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ham Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 14 minutes ago, Max Fowler said: He is supposed to be “our new leader” at the back. Watch the video. He clearly loses VVD. Does Poch deserve criticism too? Sure. But Disasi messed up fair and square for the goal. Huge error from him. If defenders didn't, every now and then, get beaten by opposition players, there would be no goals. Great play by VVD who has always been awesome from set plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulw66 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Max Fowler said: I accept we see things differently! If you think Disasi's marking was acceptable on the set piece in the final minute of the game, then fine, more power to you 🫡 we failed to score a goal we conceded 1 in 120 minutes. To blame the defence for losing the trophy is pathetic 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROTG Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said: Max Sit down , I want to break this to you gently. We're not winning the league in at least the next ten years and especially if we don't jettison this clown of a coach as soon as possible . You keep blaming the players but the reason we see such disparity in performance levels is partly their age and inexperience but it's mainly that we have a coach who thinks tactics are little minty sweets that come in a plastic box and appears to actively seek to get the worst out of them instead of the better. Change the coach for someone who hasn't proven themselves to be a complete failure and we will see improvements in all of the players . He finally lucked into a decent pairing at CB and couldn't help but fiddle with it , drawing a game we were winning and losing a game we were drawing and then spewed out bullshit reasons about tiredness in the media to deflect from his inadequacies as a coach. Not one player has improved under Pochettino , they're all worse players now than when they crossed the threshold at Cobham. I can almost guarantee that if we steer clear of Southgate , Enrique , Xavi we will improve beyond measure . In your opinion who is the best best to come and improve these players, should Poch be shown the door making him coach No3 the players would have got through since last January. . As I have said before if you want instant player/squad improvement then Bielsa is the man, and there is the added bonus that a majority of the squad understanding him in his native tongue 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDCW Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, jasonb said: Chilwell I'm on the fence on as Cucurella is like the Scarlet Pipernel and I don't think Lewis Hall sees himself as a LB. We only have Gusto at right back unless you think Gilchrist can play there or want Disais as cover. Madueke might be worth keeping as an impact sub, although Palace might be his level. I want to see Nkunku start as a No.9 so we can judge him better i agree a pure holding m/f would be good. If we sell Sterling don't think we can just rely on Mudryk though guess there is Jackson. I'm hoping Reece James won't be injured forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, ROTG said: In your opinion who is the best best to come and improve these players, should Poch be shown the door making him coach No3 the players would have got through since last January. . As I have said before if you want instant player/squad improvement then Bielsa is the man, and there is the added bonus that a majority of the squad understanding him in his native tongue 😀 I don't want to dodge the question but what we desperately need is someone who can organise the side to capitalise on the strengths of the players at his disposal and minimise their weaknesses . I think Bielsa has one fixed way of playing , great to watch as it is it'd kill our lot. We're unlikely to attract any top tier coach as it stands so we either need to go for someone we trust like Mourinho whose reputation could perhaps do with a rebuild or someone like De Zerbi ( because of the links to Caicedo and Mudryk perhaps) although I'm not sure it'd work , it's a tough ask and as confident as I am that Pochettino isn't that man I really can't answer who is . Anjorim is the latest name doing the rounds and he's supposed to be "the New Mourinho" by all accounts so maybe he's the one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, RDCW said: I'm hoping Reece James won't be injured forever! I think the moment he has a good Euro's he's being sold and to be honest it's contentious but probably for the best as he's never likely to last in English football , Madrid would suit him and I expect the bean counters too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDCW Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Mark Kelly said: I think the moment he has a good Euro's he's being sold and to be honest it's contentious but probably for the best as he's never likely to last in English football , Madrid would suit him and I expect the bean counters too. You may be right. Such a shame he can't stay fit for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fowler Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said: Max Sit down , I want to break this to you gently. We're not winning the league in at least the next ten years and especially if we don't jettison this clown of a coach as soon as possible . You keep blaming the players but the reason we see such disparity in performance levels is partly their age and inexperience but it's mainly that we have a coach who thinks tactics are little minty sweets that come in a plastic box and appears to actively seek to get the worst out of them instead of the better. Change the coach for someone who hasn't proven themselves to be a complete failure and we will see improvements in all of the players . He finally lucked into a decent pairing at CB and couldn't help but fiddle with it , drawing a game we were winning and losing a game we were drawing and then spewed out bullshit reasons about tiredness in the media to deflect from his inadequacies as a coach. Not one player has improved under Pochettino , they're all worse players now than when they crossed the threshold at Cobham. I can almost guarantee that if we steer clear of Southgate , Enrique , Xavi we will improve beyond measure . The irony is Mark is you are universally well liked on the forum and come across as a good humoured chap. I on the other hand am more provocative and a bit marmite. But you actually have an extreme position on our problems. You say that 80% of this is Poch's fault. This is completely at odds with the 3500 Chelsea fans who were polled by the Athletic and everything we have seen in the ground, where unrest has primarily been aimed at the board and not Poch. The vast majority of Chelsea fans and football fans in general believe that this isn't mainly Poch's fault. In this regard, you have an extreme position. You are supported by a vocal minority on here who hold similar positions. There is either a silent majority here who more readily agrees with me, or CFCnet skews pretty extreme in terms of views about Chelsea (possible). The irony is is compared to the fanbase, I have always been more critical of Poch and would have fired him 5 times by now. Extreme views like yours are occasionally right, but they very rarely are. As we have seen in society as a whole, polarised views and opinions are usually unhelpful and simplify complex problems down to soundbites (build the wall!) Again, the irony is we are in full agreement on sacking Poch and have been for most of the season - yet I believe I have a much more balanced set of views that the majority of Chelsea fans agree with: The majority of blame lies with people above Poch. The owners hired the DoFs and sporting team, and collectively they hired Potter and Poch (who have both failed), undertaken a strategy which has been extremely costly and experimental at this level and has completely failed to deliver and sent us backwards. Poch has failed. He may have been dealt a bad hand but he has been completely unconvincing and we need to make a change for better or for worse - he has not been successful despite the problems above him. The players largely aren't good enough. This is largely not their fault but they do bear some responsibility for not turning up throughout the season. Nonetheless we should have bought better players. Again - I am often framed as some kind of extremist but actually you will find this set of views much more in line with the majority of Chelsea fans and football fans as a whole. Whether that makes them right or not remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguelito07 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 34 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said: I think the moment he has a good Euro's I doubt he will play much (if he does go) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kelly Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, Max Fowler said: The irony is Mark is you are universally well liked on the forum and come across as a good humoured chap. I on the other hand am more provocative and a bit marmite. But you actually have an extreme position on our problems. You say that 80% of this is Poch's fault. This is completely at odds with the 3500 Chelsea fans who were polled by the Athletic and everything we have seen in the ground, where unrest has primarily been aimed at the board and not Poch. The vast majority of Chelsea fans and football fans in general believe that this isn't mainly Poch's fault. In this regard, you have an extreme position. You are supported by a vocal minority on here who hold similar positions. There is either a silent majority here who more readily agrees with me, or CFCnet skews pretty extreme in terms of views about Chelsea (possible). The irony is is compared to the fanbase, I have always been more critical of Poch and would have fired him 5 times by now. Extreme views like yours are occasionally right, but they very rarely are. As we have seen in society as a whole, polarised views and opinions are usually unhelpful and simplify complex problems down to soundbites (build the wall!) Again, the irony is we are in full agreement on sacking Poch and have been for most of the season - yet I believe I have a much more balanced set of views that the majority of Chelsea fans agree with: The majority of blame lies with people above Poch. The owners hired the DoFs and sporting team, and collectively they hired Potter and Poch (who have both failed), undertaken a strategy which has been extremely costly and experimental at this level and has completely failed to deliver and sent us backwards. Poch has failed. He may have been dealt a bad hand but he has been completely unconvincing and we need to make a change for better or for worse - he has not been successful despite the problems above him. The players largely aren't good enough. This is largely not their fault but they do bear some responsibility for not turning up throughout the season. Nonetheless we should have bought better players. Again - I am often framed as some kind of extremist but actually you will find this set of views much more in line with the majority of Chelsea fans and football fans as a whole. Whether that makes them right or not remains to be seen. I like you plenty Max , don't worry about that. The other bit is my opinion , I'm interested what other people think but this opinion is solely mine and I will be the clown when I am proved to be wrong when Pochettino wins something , I however don't think I have much to worry about. We're not going to get Clearlake out , they've made numerous mistakes , starting with having no "football" people about to advise them and then apparently getting the wrong football people in to advise them . I think the players are fine , are they prime Drogba , Lampard and Terry , of course not but they're equally as good or better than many of their peer group sitting further up the table than Chelsea , the difference is generally the abilities of their club coaches getting the best out of them , we played City and Liverpool recently and our awful players matched them until the coach made it so they were unable to . He's a dud , a fraud , a coward , a clown , a charlatan other than that he's smashing . I have stuck by my opinion of Pochettino for weeks and weeks now , the same as I did when I was blaming the old players for their performances under Potter and Lampard , that's again my opinion and one that I believe I am right to think that many of the players we had then were ready to go and didn't want to take the swingeing pay cuts that the new board were determined to bring in . It's a forum , everyone is allowed to say what they like when they like , that's how it works , I'm fairly sure that the mods aren't sitting on comments that would back you up and go against what I'm saying , I do have strong and often polarising opinions on Chelsea and many other things of interest but they are genuinely held and not said for effect , this place for me is very much like the local watering hole for me , like going to the pub with your mates and chewing the fat before and after a game and personally I'd rather read any number of the posters on here's views ( even yours lol) than any football writer spewing agenda driven cobblers in the media for money . In a nutshell , I'm happy if you disagree with me ,that's what it's all about . 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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